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A Positive Drug Test? What Should We Do Now?
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December 2, 2008
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Two wrongs Waste Taxpayer Money
Independent Federal Agency
Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:37 AM
Post Reply
The first wrong was the employee using illegal drugs. That's what I get from this.
The second wrong was for the agency to object and withhold e-mails that should have been handed over to the defense counsel. If the Army did everything they should have done and had nothing to hide, then holding out should not have been an issue.
Here are two examples where being all you can be equates to poor performance.
Re: Two wrongs Waste Taxpayer Money
VA
Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:23 AM
It also shows how emails are written agency documentation and thus can be used against you. Lesson? Pick up the phone.
Re: Two wrongs Waste Taxpayer Money
OPM
Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:42 AM
Also, I was under the impression that drug addiction was covered by the ADA. I would wonder why she was not given the option of entering a rehab program.
I'm not defending what she did - only her right to be fairly treated. We all trip and fall at times.
Re: Two wrongs Waste Taxpayer Money
retired
Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:14 PM
Drug Test
Indeptendent Agency
Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:01 AM
Post Reply
This was a NURSING assistant - someone who is entrusted with the care of sick individuals. She tested positive for drugs and admits it. That should be enough to remove her yet here we are spending time, effort, and money ensuring a process is followed.
A Positive Drug Test
MEDCOM
Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:11 AM
Post Reply
URINE TEST
(I sure would like to know who wrote this one! They deserve a HUGE pat on the back!)
Like a lot of folks in this state, I have a job. I work, they pay me. I pay my taxes and the government distributes my taxes as it sees fit. In order to get that paycheck, I am required to pass a random urine test with which I have no problem. What I do have a problem with is the distribution of my taxes to people who don't have to pass a urine test. Shouldn't one have to pass a urine test to get a welfare check because I have to pass one to earn it for them? Please understand, I have no problem with helping people get back on their feet. I do, on the other hand, have a problem with helping someone sitting on their ASS, doing drugs, while I work. . . . Can you imagine how much money the state would save if people had to pass a urine test to get a public assistance check? Pass this along if you agree or simply delete if you don't. Hope you all will pass it along, though . . . Something has to change in this country and soon.
I agree with this 100%, and if you do too, pass it on.
Re: A Positive Drug Test
IT Spec
Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:51 AM
I think this is an excellent point. If a person is using drugs then their kids are probably not seeing much money from the welfare check. Maybe the kids should be removed from the home and the parent(s) can sink or swim on their own.
I'd like to see child care offered via welfare and have a work requirement instead of merely handing over a check for doing nothing. I think the drug test should be mandated as well.
Either clean up your act or get off the public dole. The system perpetuates the problem. I feel sorry for the kids.
Re: A Positive Drug Test
F.A.A.
Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:42 PM
Re: A Positive Drug Test
DFAS
Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:01 AM
Re: A Positive Drug Test
DON
Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:50 AM
As for the article, wrong is wrong, if she was popped and guilty, they should have used the rules and regulations that are put in place for people that are popped on a p-test from A-to-Z, then it would probably have ended without all this back-and-forth.
Too many cooks spoil the broth
DHS
Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:26 AM
Post Reply
Notice that this case collapsed on procedure, not substance. Managers at higher levels have to be counseled to stay out of decisions to discipline by lower level managers. These emails are discoverable and will be discovered. In their zeal to achieve an intended outcome, they can poison the case.
Re: Too many cooks spoil the broth
retired
Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:17 PM
SHAME ON THE ARMY
USMC
Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:53 AM
Post Reply
The USMC and DON does random drug tests for civilians and military personnel ALL THE TIME.
THE USMC AND DON Have RULES - If you fail a drug test:
Military are processed out of the military service with a dishoneable discharge.
If you are a civilian - your are fired.
The supervisors, managers, HRO & Commanding officers NEVER call each other and ask what do we do.
Who trained these Army people and how did they get to this levels of positions?
Everyone one of these supervisors, managers, HRO personnel, commanding officals need to be re-trained on what their requirements are for the position they hold.
This group had rules and even explained the rules to the drug user (but these individuals could not follow thru). These are POOR manager and supervisor skills (they need to be re-trained in what to do as a supervisor or manager). I am sure by what has happened that this is not the first time that the managers and supervsiors have failed at their positions.
Was this nurse taking drugs illegally?
EPA
Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:06 PM
Post Reply
These tests are for the illegal USE of drugs .
An employee may test positive even if they are taking the drug legally, ex. opiates for seizure control.
Anyone who tests positive in a drug test has the right under the ADA to request a second, more specific drug test, which would show exactly what drug is testing positive. If the employee can show that they are taking that medication as prescribed by their doctor, she is not taking drugs illegally.
If the employee is a person with a disability, firing her for legal use of drugs is a violation of her civil rights under the ADA.
None of the managers in this "chain of fools" had the competence to remember their required EEO training, if they had it.
I'd say that the Douglas factors definitely apply in this case -- if this nurse is an employee with a disability, she has definitely shown "mitigating factors surrounding the offense."
A person who USES drugs illegally is not protected under the ADA.
What kind of drugs?
DoD
Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:47 PM
Post Reply
I would like to know exactly what she came up hot for before I pass judgement. Substances such as PCP, cocaine, and, yes, alcohol leave someone's system within a matter of hours. Cannabis, a far less destructive drug than the above-mentioned, resides in a person's fat cells and can stay show up in urine 30 days after being imbibed.
I do not do drugs of any kind. However, I believe that the difference between cannabis and hard drugs should be acknowledged. In my time in federal service I have had to work with several people who were destroying their lives with alcohol. It's disturbing to me that, by gov't standards, someone who passes out after 9 fingers of scotch the night before a drug screen is considered "drug-free," while someone who smoked a joint two weeks ago is considered some kind of junky.
Cannabis doesn't kill people; alcohol does. Hearing someone complain about "dopers" while shakily reaching for another highball makes me feel like I live in bizarro-world.
Re: What kind of drugs?
FAA
Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:03 AM
Whether your are high from pot or beer you are a danger to others. Your jugement is degraded either way.
Lives are destroyed no matter what the addiction.
In the FAA, as a direct safety related employee I am both drug and alcohol tested.
So someone in my position who had that 9 fingers of scotch the night before just might fail the alcohol test.
If they do there can be a one time chance to enter any program the agency deems fit to save your job.
Also you are allowed to write any prescription drugs you take on the forms before a drug test.
But back to the main point. If the effects of smoking pot stay in your body for 30 days, how can you say that is harmless, or even less harmless than other drugs?
Pot doesn't destroy lives? Get Real.
Re: What kind of drugs?
dod
Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:52 PM
The laws have been established as to what is considered illegal or not. So, regardless of which
substance is more harmful, the legality issue makes it clear. Follow the laws put down and don't abuse
ANYTHING. You are correct about booze - it's a very damaging/destructive path to take. Whatever this person CHOSE to do - she/and the other employees were duely warned what could happen. If she had a substance problem, she should have spoke up and asked for assistance. Now, it's all hinging on procedural issues or lack thereof of management. If her case was clear cut..why not disclose and put it all out there for view? Anytime someone tries to"hide" facts, i.e, emails etc, it makes me wonder what else was going on about this? I shake my head in bewilderment at the choices made on both sides of this...
Re: What kind of drugs?
DoD
Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:52 PM
You would be quite correct if a person had smoked cannabis before coming into work, and was therefore high when performing job duties. But as DOE said, saying someone is impaired two weeks after one use is absurd on its face. Also, with DOE's point that a substance staying in your system for X number of days does not equate to harmfulness, and the fact that if someone got drunk last night they WOULD pass a urine test due to the nature of alcohol, you get a big fat F for reading comprehension.
So someone with a 4-alarm hangover from scotch is drug-free, and someone who smoked a bowl two weeks ago is not. Bizarro-world. (Which would you trust to drive a forklift or truck?)
People who smoke cannabis get chronic bronchitis, and can become mentally addicted. That's about it; it is directly involved in 0 deaths each year. Compare that to alcohol, cocaine, tobacco, etc. and you start to see where I'm coming from.
Re: What kind of drugs?
FAA
Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:52 AM
Do you want an Air Traffic Controller, or one who maintains the RADAR controllers use to be a abuser of any kind of drug? We do not deal with forklifts, we deal with 747's full of people.
You are right to smoking a bowl two weeks ago will not degrade your performance today, neither will getting drunk on a Friday night when you report Monday morning. It is not that you are impaired two weeks later it is that you have broken the law. Are you saying people high on pot have never caused any kind of death? To believe that is naive.
Pot does cause psychosis, paranoia, depression and other mental problems. The smoke of 5 "reefers" a week is equal to 1 pack of tobacco a day in cancer causing agents.
My point is that any mind altering drug is bad for you.
Re: What kind of drugs?
FAA
Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:10 PM