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The Shortage of People for Jobs

Hiring Non-Status Cititzens - esp Seniors

Retired AF Civilian
USAF
Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:50 AM

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As a recently retired fed employee, I have been helping a close friend who works in State govt try to secure a Fed job in the administrative area by assisting with the "process" of each agencies instructions. Hope one day OPM will standardize this unnecessary effort. There's Resumix, USAJobs, AvuCentral, Application Manager and dozens more. I digress. This individual is 55 and highly qualified administratively, and never seems to climb to the top of the heap for consideration. Probably due to a lot of returning vets (which is fine), or other stoppers. I tend to believe that many agency HR personnel still turn a blind one eye to older workers, as not worthy to enter federal service. So it will be interesting to see if this massive exodus will truly open up doors for qualified non-status citizens, regardless of age, to enter federal service.

WE NEED IN HOUSE TRAINING

WORKER
USMC
Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:50 AM

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I see a lot of positions and job requirements for positions that require degrees. I have a degree, but I have had COOPs & temps without degrees that can peform these functions/tasks.

I had one COOP that worked with me & she was very smart - her grade was a GS-2-yet she was helping me do engineering work.

I have talked with many managers & supervisors- they say that- to many of the jobs require degrees and the degree is not necessary to perform the functions of the position.

We need to be doing a lot of in house training (true interships), & upward mobility type positions, & training to keep the smart people & get them trained to do the job.
Sending someone to college does not promise that the individuals will know how to do the job when they come to work for the government (all it says is that the individual attended college). I have had a lot of college grads come to work here & I have had to train them to do there simple functions/duties.

Shortage of people

GSA employee
GSA
Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:40 PM

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There are no requirements for college degrees for most federal jobs, but management hires from the outside because they "want" someone with a degree. More importantly, it is so they can avoid letting current staff members advance and backfill the jobs. How sad to work 20+ years and never get past a GS-5/6/7 because of the lack of a degree you can't afford to obtain. Regardless how experienced a person is, no advancement without the degree. GSA has people at the GS-12, 13, and 14 with only 5 or so years of service. If agencies want the experience to stay "in-house" then promote from within since the current staff has the experience and proven ability to perform. There will be opportunities to share the skills and avoid the loss of "knowledge" by teaching the new hires from the entry levels instead of bringing them on board at a GS-9 or GS-11.

Re: Shortage of people

Budget Analyst
DOD
Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:04 AM
GSA employee that may be the situation where you are, but if you work for the Air Force and are one of the "Good Old Boy/Girls" they can and do move you up the ladder. We have several GS12/13 and even some at the 14 level with no degree. These same people will not advance anyone that is not in the club without a degree, I think it's a way to keep the club clean of undesirables.

BOOMERS WILL CONTINUE WORKING, THEY'LL HAVE TO

N.A.
N.A.
Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:17 PM

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Boomers aren't about to retire, either on time or early. They can't....

http://pacificgatepost.blogspot.com/2008/04/baby-boomers-make-no-assumptions.html

The system isn't ready for them.

Re Is it realistic

Engineer
AF
Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:36 PM

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ER Specialist, that's basically my point. You needed 10 years of nights & weekends to go back to school. Someone in manufacturing who's faced with "imminent layoff" (per the article) doesn't have the 10 years. They need alternatives they can use now. For example, I grew up in a cotton mill town and got an education through the AF. Many of my friends didn't even graduate high school. And of those who did, many quite frankly aren't college material. The cotton mills moved over seas and they lost the only jobs they, their parents, and grandparents had known. These folks aren't going to become rocket scientists. They need practical advice that can be used by unemployed 55 year old mill workers. College isn't the answer for everyone. The education system needs to understand that -- and that craft workers are every bit as skilled and valuable as engineers. Schools need to have both college track and vocational track courses that need to be available where the people are.

Re: Re Is it realistic

HR Guy
Been Around
Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:06 AM
Engineer - Your uneducated 55 year old friends aren't interested in ever going back to school to learn anything. The sad fact is they cast their lot 40 years ago when they dropped out and took that perpetually crummy mill job - like daddy - and thought themselves smart. I worked manufacturing myself years ago, it paid for my "your lucky" degree at $4 an hour, and can only look back at all the smart guys who restricted their life horizons by planning to mindlessly stand by a machine for 40 years and grab a "gone fishing" pension. All they wanted from life was a cold beer, pack of smokes, and a weekend dolly. They'll figure out how to keep that happening; always have.

Re: Re Is it realistic

WORKERBEE
DOD
Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:21 AM
HR guy, I don't know where you have been around, but you need to ratchet it down some about the industrial workers in those "crummy" jobs. I know numerous workers with incredible technical skills that would probably outshine a "smart guy" such as yourself. And, they make quite handsome salaries. Frankly, your comments appalled me. If you are in HR, boy, that's scary.

Re: Re Is it realistic

Nameless, Faceless Nobody
DOD
Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:20 AM
WOW!!!

I am an intelligent, partly educated but with no degree, administrative type person. My job range will never exceed GS 7, (I am pretty well topped out just now,) and life truly did not work out so that I could finish my college degree.

I made choices. I don't regret leaving an abusive marriage. I don't regret putting my money into medical care that saved my life. I don't regret choosing to remain home at night because otherwise my ex would claim that he was more available to our daughter. I am not whining that I couldn't go back to college.

I may get a chance soon; I do the math every year. However, I will be 50 years old, most of my earlier education was pointed to a field I now know I don't wish to pursue so is useless. 1 class each semester is not going to do it for me.

What I want: RESPECT. Too many people just seem to think that if you don't have a degree you are worthless. Sorry, but just try and live without us.

Re: Re Is it realistic

HR Guy
Been Around
Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:15 AM
Workerbee - There's a vast difference between a machine operator in a mill and a "technician." You can be appalled...and still that's just the way it is on the factory floor. I've stood at a bank of molding machines mindlessly cranking out stuff in 100 degree-plus heat, perpetual grime and oily air with these people - and drank my beer in a tavern and played pay check poker with them, have you? I've seen guys lose hands in punch press accidents, and others dropped down stairs for rate busting. You may "know" them; I was one. It's a very different life than the idyll you think you know, friend, and a very common one.

Is it realistic

Production Controller
DOD
Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:40 AM

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Quote: Your uneducated 55 year old friends aren't interested in ever going back to school ...

The truth in this line of thinking that was not mentioned is that without the grass roots worker/laborer/mill operators Etc. the economy of our nation would fail. we need and always will need those who want to do this work. All work is honorable, and your lack of appreciation for said workers is elitist and snobbery to say the least.

Re: Is it realistic

GS-12
any
Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:31 AM
Quote: Your uneducated 55 year old friends aren't interested in ever going back to school ...

I'm not 55, but I am 50 with less than one year of college. I have been working for 30 years. Started as GS-2. I'm intelligent and worked hard. I was able to advance because the management saw my work habits, work ethic, and intelligence. It took a long time to reach a GS-12, but I got here. There are at least 3 positions that I had in the past that I wouldn't qualify for now because someone decided that a degree is required. These positions all require formal classroom in-house agency-specific training, even for new hires with a degree. I agree with someone else who said that there are many positions that could be filled by smart people without formal education. I can't get another position because of lack of degree even though many people with degrees failed in positions in which I excelled.

Workforce Shortage

Tax Compliance Officer
IRS
Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:45 AM

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I've been reading more and more about the shortage of people to fill critical jobs, such as nurses and teachers, etc. and it makes me VERY angry because I have a brother who taught in a Un. Lab School for about 30 yrs. and returned to school to get his PhD, but now can't find a job because he's 63. They won't even interview him because he would command a higher salary. He has volunteered to accept less money than his experience and education commands and they say they can't do that. Is ther any wonder we have problems in our schools with 25-30 yr old Principals and Supt.? They have no experience with teaching, dealing with children, parents, other experienced teahcers, crisis situaltions, etc. while those who know how to actually teach the children and know how to deal with others are not even given the opportunity to work when that is all they really want to do. When people can operate corps., run for Pres. of the U.S., etc. when they are over 55 it is OK,but one cna't teach scho

Total Comments: 37
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