Re: Riding the Coattails?

You've either not worked with the military very long or you're completely delusional if you think that being a federal civilian worker is ANYTHING like being in the service. I've never been in myself, but after nearly 28 years of working for DOD, I've developed a deep appreciation for the kind of sacrifices our service members are making for us every day. Sure, most of us work hard and a tiny percentage of the federal workforce even volunteers for hazardous duty overseas, but the vast majority of us will never know what it's like to be shot at, or to be away from our families for months on end. Don't get me wrong, I'm delighted to ride the coattails of the military to a higher pay raise, but I would never have the unmitigated gall to claim that my service as a civilian is in any way comparable to being in the military. Fortunately for us civilian workers, federal unions have no such compunction about making that outrageous claim. At least those weasels are good for something.

Re: Riding the Coattails?

Dod Engineer, why have you never been in yourself? Is there some reason you avoided military service while others either chose to serve or were called upon to serve? I'd love to hear your answer..

Re: Riding the Coattails?

When at sea or otherwise deployed the military serve in ways the average civilian never will. Load up the hazard pay!

When I work side-by-side with my military counterpart he gets SIQ, liberty to take care of his car, or pick up his kid. He gets a 2-hr lunch (out of an 8 hr day,) in order to have lunch AND work out. I have a standard 8.5 hr day and if I take a long lunch to work out I must add that time to the length of my day.

If you compare apples to apples, (yes, I have done that with a military pay clerk,) and compare relative grade/rank, time in service, other amounts paid to the military member, it works out that my equal in the military makes a leetle less in base pay but has a lot more in all the various allowances. I must also pay for my insurance.

I am not complaining...we have a different deal and in this job I don't deploy. However, I have been the continuity in the unit. Military come and go a lot more often than I do.

I am worth my = payraise %.

Re: Riding the Coattails?

The obvious implication by ACO is that there is no such thing as a legimate reason for someone not serving. That's an extremely short sighted perspective that we can only hope very few people share.

Re: Riding the Coattails?

DoJ Supervisor, maybe YOU can explain the legitimate reasons for someone not serving. I realize some people are disabled or unfit to serve, for various reasons. That does NOT take into account all of those who could have served but chose not to. I'm waiting for your or DoD Engineer's answer - thank you.

Re: Riding the Coattails?

ACO, originally the tone of your post implied the Engineer was being unpatriotic by not serving when you knew nothing about their situation. That by definition demonstrates a belief that there are no legitimate reasons to not serve.

Now you're backtracking by listing some reasons that are legitimate. Quit straddling both sides of the fence.

Re: Riding the Coattails?

The supervisor does have a very good point ACO, you were very negative towards the engineer in the way you called him out on not serving, it's quite clear that you looked down on him purely because of lack of service.

Re: Riding the Coattails?

It is not a matter of "looking down" on the DoD Engineer. His attempt to compare civilian service and military service is pretty far fetched. The comparison of the two is more akin to apples and cats than apples and oranges.

Re: Riding the Coattails?

Prof, you may be right about the fed to military comparison, but it is quite clear that the ACO does look down on the engineer because he didn't serve in the military without knowing why he didn't serve.

Re: Riding the Coattails?

All I am asking is that any or all who want to reply come up with a good excuse NOT to have served in the military if in fact one COULD have served but chose not to. This lets off the hook those who were truly disabled or not fit for duty, etc. The fact that many had some degree of unfitness, who might have had families to support, whatever, but still served honorably, raises questions about others in similar situations who did not join up. This is particularly galling when someone like the DoD Engineer waves the sanctimonious flag when s/he didn't find it necessary to join. And for all the parsing of what I said, nobody has bothered to answer the question I put out there. Why not?

Re: Riding the Coattails?

Why not? Because the military is not for everyone, that's why not. Some serve this country better in other capacities, and should not be belittled because they opt to do so. There is nothing about military service that inherently makes a person better than anyone else. Hell, one of the bravest guys I've ever met was a logistics organizer for NGOs in Africa, and who's to say this guy wasn't "serving"?

Just for the record, I am a veteran.

Re: Riding the Coattails?

Once upon a time, it didn't make a difference whether military service was "for everyone or not". You were expected to do your part & serve unless there was a compelling reason not to. We've just observed Memorial Day; I wonder how many of the troops who paid the ultimate price may have wanted to opt out along the way on the basis that military service wasn't for them - but didn't get to make that choice. Draft, anyone?

Re: Riding the Coattails?

Hey Prof?

For many years I did exactly the same job as my military counterpart, except I worked longer hours and was paid less in the final comparison.

I wasn't angry or bitter, I would not have to deploy. But we both brought valuable skills and abilities to the table.

The percentage match only applies to base pay, for the military guy. He will get additional compensation that we don't. A few years ago the military even got a second pay adjusment that we did not get a match.

It takes some 7 people to keep 1 warrior in the field. Some of the 7 just happen to be civilians.

Re: Riding the Coattails?

I don't find it unpatriotic not to serve. Is there a good reason for going to war and are we really protecting the nation or is it a matter of the "fat cat" DoD contractors making a bundle of money selling their materiel at the cost of thousands of lives? I don't and won't serve to make someone else rich. I will serve for a true cause to protect our nation, and only then.

Re: Riding the Coattails?

"Taxpayer American"?? Again, since when is it an individual's call as to when to answer the call to service and when not to? Whatever the wrongs perpetuated by Bush in the Iraq situation - and they are many - there will probably never be a war in which some "DoD contractor" doesn't profit at some level; so what? And no, this is not a matter of "patriotism" - any fool can wave the flag and be a good "patriot" - the point is whether that patriot is doing his or her fair share to defend this country at a riskier level than waving the flag.

Re: Riding the Coattails?

Wow, ACO! You have completely forgotten concepts like free will and liberty when you so cavalierly talk about one of the ugliest stains on our country's history: compulsory service. What makes our current military so great is the fact that the people in it are there by choice. They are choosing to defend our country. In so doing, they are making a choice to do what they see as the best option for themselves. That is the only reason anyone should ever do anything, otherwise they are a slave. The beauty of our freedom and liberty is that when everyone makes such a choice for themselves, it ends up serving the greater good. As Adam Smith pointed out, it is not from the benevolence of the butcher that I get my meat, but from his/her own self-interest. There are other callings in life besides military service, and if someone believes it is in their best interest (and therefore everyone else's) to not join the military, then that is their prerogative. Otherwise, say goodbye to freedom.

Re: Riding the Coattails?

Today's military is great without the draft, but the military with the draft was also just as great. Service to ones country, active duty military or otherwise is an obligation that many of our young people, who are able, decide not to do. They claim their right to live in this country buy feel no obligation to serve it. Shame on them.

Re: 2009 pay raise

Your inference that President Bush is to blame for high gas prices is misguided at best.

China (a huge country) is using way more oil than they ever have, yet you've ignored this fact.
The rest of the world is using more oil than they ever have, yet you've ignored this fact as well.
Much of the increase is a direct result of speculative investing, and yes... you've ignored this fact too.

Your opinion doesn't measure up when compared to the facts.