Re: Pre-Election Candidate Letters

Dont' confuse Regan's pre-election sympathy (after PATCO's endorsement) for PATCO's issues with his being able to accept an out-and-out illegal strike. That muddies the waters of this discussion. Ironically, the measure of Obama's intentions may well be played out in how he deals with the current "contract" between the FAA and NATCA.

Look to see who becomes the Secretary of Labor. One name mentioned for that position is Andy Stern, President of SEIU who's membership is made up of a high number of minorities including the huge hispanic block that supported him this time around. If that happens, THAT will be REAL change. Putting someone with REAL labor experience would be different.

Re: We will watch and see

Actually Clinton was not as Labor Friendly as most give him credit for. Which is understandable after Regan, Bush and Bush 2. While he did push for partnership, nothing was binding, he was pretty centered in his appointments and he did not push the labor agenda. Hopefully this next 4 years will be just a little left of Clinton. Not to much though, while I am a big Union guy, I see a big difference between federal and civilian unions. It will just be nice to know there will be some sort of checks and balances system. Bush 2 did away with any oversight and as you can see, everything went so well.

Re: PATCO Comment

I'm not certain where you got you information that most PATCO members did not lose a dime.

I knew a lot of good people that did not get jobs back.

Re: PATCO Comment

"Reagan gave them ample time to return to work"

You obviously were not there and have no clue of the complex psychological and emotional factors that were in play.

"Most of the PATCO members secured jobs in other agencies, and never lost a dime."

Another dubious statement on your part. Please cite your supporting data.

Personally, it was many years before I recovered financially. It wasn't until Spring 1987 that I landed a secure job, managing energy for an investor-owned utility. Fifteen years passed before I returned to federal service in the DOE. I make a comfortable living now, but I lost hundreds of thousands of dollars from the strike, plus I lost the opportunity to retire early under the special ATC retirement.

So please, no more holier-than-thou moralizing on the evils of PATCO. We did the crime and served the time. What more do you want from us?

Re: PATCO Comment

I agree that the controllers were given "ample time" but I also agree that there was a lot of emotion on the part of PATCO's membership. Poli led them down a path of false invincibility.

HOWEVER...There are too many stories around of PATCO controllers being black balled even to the extent that civilian employeers with any government contracts were afraid to upset the apple cart. Many good people suffered for their choices.

ALSO...it has been proved that the FAA used this opportunity to get rid of "undesireables". Specifically, the Chicago Center was found guilty of this tactic. I believe it was proved that they falsified attendance records to show some that returned didn't return in time and were subsequently fired.

Re: PATCO Comment

PATCO federal employees engaged in an illegal strike, were order to return to work and refused to return to work. They were properly fired. What is so hard to understand?

Re: PATCO Comment

Deserved or not, thousands of lives were devasted by the strike. Controllers were given 48 hours to return. In hindsight, if the period had been somewhat longer and strikers could have seen that the system was not going to collapse, more would likely have returned (almost none did.) While managers were glad to see many controllers go, I don't recall any allegations of falsified records.

Re: PATCO Comment

"PATCO federal employees engaged in an illegal strike...
They were properly fired. What is so hard to understand?"

And the Reagan Administration engaged in illegal activity during the Iran-Contra affair. The hypocrisy is palpable. Why is this so hard to understand?

Re: PATCO Comment

For HR CONSULTANT:

In the book Silent Skies By Willis J. Nordlund, chapter 8 is titled THE CHICAGO DEBACLE and brings out a lot of the issue in pretty decent detail about the WAR ROOM. I think it is pretty compelling material to demosntrate the fabrication of evidence to support fireings.

Re: PATCO Comment

Firing the PATCO members had more to do with sending a message than anything connected with their political endorsement. That Summer the Postal Workers were planning to strike and it was easier to replace a few ATCs than it would be to replace all those postal employees. After PATCO, the Postal unions didn't even mention the "S-word."

Re: PATCO Comment

This isn't France where public employees can shut the gov't down. CS have jobs for life all they have to do is show up, asking them to actually do something is a different topic, since that's all that is required its pretty simple to retire comfortably on a gov pension.
I do agree PATCO members payed the price, but black balled hardly, who would want to hire a malcontent they made their bed and got to lie in it

Re: PATCO Comment

"who would want to hire a malcontent they made their bed and got to lie in it"

They say living well is the best revenge. Well Mr. Diversity Manager, you, John Q. Public, hired me, back into the Dept. of Energy. And into quite a good job, if I'm allowed to say so. Five+ weeks vacation annually, 6 consecutive days off from work every second week (courtesy of 12-hour shifts), the luxury of choosing between time or money for overtime, the relaxing joy of "out of sight, out of mind" work. Not bad benefits for a job that pays only $170,000 a year...

Re: Will Labor really be happy?

"The constant threats are numbing and have no affect on management. We will do what we need to do to accomplish the mission. Labor just has a hard time accepting that at times."

Uh, well no...........What you will do is what you are directed to do by your NEW agency director. Or, perhaps you will be the one in mamagements crosshairs. Tables have turned, guess that doesn't appeal to you.

Re: Will Labor really be happy?

Uh, well, seems you don't have a clue. You should be an outstanding union representative....

As to the tables turning, duh.....Chapter 71 hasn't changed since 1978......uh, well........guess there are no tables to turn...hmmmmmm.

Re: Will Labor really be happy?

I haven't seen a Labor Director that even knew what our mission was let alone had the will to accomplish it. They sit in a third party over-watch position and create their own job security by rewriting policies that were already working, inventing new ones that should have never been put in writing and handing down disciplinary action that does not hold up to third party review or more importantly the smell test of the agents in the field. Hopefully your position will go by the wayside and we can start working with the people who do the job again instead of bureaucrats with no more honor than the politicians who hired them.

Re: Reconstruction

Eight years of demolition? I am so sick of hearing that. People need to stay out of the past and look to the future.

Re: Reconstruction

I always had trust. Maybe if the unions had been realistic, issues would have turned out better. I'm a mere worker, but I have no support of unions when unrealisitic demands are made.

Growing up in a "union" town, I witnessed over 5,000 jobs disappear because of the unions unrealisitc demands. Devastated families was the only thing left. We are still seeing the effects today.

Re: Reconstruction

Worker DoD:
Go to Walmart, for what the world would look like, with no unions!! Or better yet, get a job there!! Case closed!!

Re: Reconstruction

Fed Worker & Union Guy DoD,
Nice reply, you make some really good points to convince someone.

Re: Reconstruction

8 Years of demolition? I started with USDA in 2000 and have worked for the GOV during King George II entire term, and I can tell you that at the facilities I worked we never had it so good. We had money for infrastructure to rebuild, remodel, and renovate what had been laid to waste by Clinton. Employees actually got pay increases every year. Twice under Clinton Wage Grade employees saw pay freeze for at least two years...essentially half the time Bill was chasing tail, we had people stagnating with no pay increase. As for the GS employees, while people in the civil sector were getting 5 to 7% increases per year, they were lucky to get a 1.5 to 2% increase.
Under Bush the lowest I ever received under WG or GS was 2.5%. We had NO A-76 under Bush, and yet twice under Clinton my co-workers had to fight for their jobs.
Who was better for Federal employees again? I am no fan of King George, but he has not been too bad for most of us (NSPS not included, that deal just sucks!)