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Federal Manager's Disciplinary and Adverse Action Working Papers

Managers

former DAPM
NOAA/NWS
Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:04 AM

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The problem I saw many many times was CLUELESS managers with little or no experience being put in charge of experienced field staff. The frustration in dealing with these bad managers and their poor decision making adds much uneccasary stress to the job. I had a terrible local manager the last 6 years, before I couldn't take it anymore and retired. I rarely ever saw discipline against them. Their incompetence was usually swept under the rug, leaving the staffs of the offices to deal with them through unions etc...

Re: Managers

Engineer
AF
Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:06 PM
I have had seven managers in the last five years (I have not changed jobs!) yet not one had a clue about my job. In fact the last manager who actually knew my job was 12 years ago. They weren't all bad and most honestly tried to be good managers, but they can't manage effectively when they don't know what we do or what the division does. After all, if you don't know what your employees do, they you don't know who is effective, who is telling the hard truth, and who is blowing smoke up ... Example, another engineer & I were trying unsuccessfully to explain something to our manager. In walked engineer X who flat out lied through his teeth when asked the same question, but satisfied our manager who leaves saying "why can't the rest of you give me an answer like that!" "X" even acknowledged making up a false answer to satisfy the boss rather than technical truth. Guess who is now a GS15?

Federal Manager’s Disciplinary and Adverse Action Working Papers

Procurement Agent
DOI/BLM
Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:04 PM

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I have to agree with the first comment. I have worked at this location for 8 years. My manager has been here 4 years. He is in over his head. I has become his habit to make me his "scape-goat". Thing are serious at this time. I am looking for a job. I don't think I sould have to and I am frustrated that he is not disciplined ......

Re: Federal Manager’s Disciplinary and Adverse Action Working Papers

Exec VP
AFGE & US DOL
Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:59 PM
I have to admit that I agree with both of you. The sadest part is that upper management has usually promoted their mentee and are embarrassed to admit that their so-called prodigy couldn't hack it as a manager and the incompetence and abuse goes on and on.

Firing or Disciplining a Federal Employee

HR Specialist
civilian agency
Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:45 PM

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I hope that Mr. Gilson's articles will inspire some managers to develop a backbone and to take action against an employee(s) dragging down an organization. Too often, we hear that there is a significant problem but no one wants to invest the time, effort and inevitable hassle with getting rid of an incompetent. The lack of action hurts the entire organization.

Unfortunately, the federal system actually encourages incompetence. The myriad of appeals, the inevitable carping from the union representative and the lack of incentives for managers to actually manage are overwhelming. As a result, we have a well paid workforce with most people working hard. We also have some in the workforce that are indolent or just incompetent and cause most of the problems but they never leave--just eventually retire when everyone else can breathe a sign of relief.

Managers

Tool and Parts attendant
DoD
Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:02 PM

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I would like to not only have a supervisor witha a backbone but I would also like to have a supervisor who knows how to do my job. My supervisor his supervisor and the supervisor above them have no back bone and none of them could do my job if they had too. When I try to explain it to them they don't even want to know. Some of the employees get away with everything because the the first line supervisor closes his eyes and lets employees sit around and do nothing the rest of us pick up the slack. I agree the federal system encourages incompentence,there is nothing that can be done in this case because of the good ole boys club and the supervisor who only sees what he wants and only sees the color of your skin and I am talking reverse discrimanation. If you are white you don't apply. People are put in management positions that do not have a clue how to b managers or how to do the job. They got put there because it was thier turn.

Absolutely Incompetent Employee

Procurement Agent
USDA Forest Service
Tue Aug 1, 2006 9:46 AM

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I have been at this location 20+ years and I have seen the same ongoing problems as those mentioned above. Bottom line? Color rules and absolute incompetency is ignored and swept under the rug over and over and over again!! Our group has seen this minority employee drag our group down with ongoing screw ups (I'm talking 17yrs!), and saw this same employee get into our Supervisor's face and scream with a rage that led to an investigation. This raging anger happened not once but THREE times - yet this employee is still here and a GS12 to boot! I have been in Federal Government for 24 years, a triple minority, and I would be deeply shamed not to appreciate the job I hold, and mostly for the ABSOLUTE pride I take my accomplishment, and I am sincerely grateful that the Government gave me the chance to better myself those 24+ years ago!!

Planned future series

Forester and Union President
US Forest Service
Wed Aug 2, 2006 2:36 PM

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Bob, I really enjoy your articles. I have a suggestion for a future topic, it is on the Privacy Act and Interviewing the "Employee who may be subject to discipline" concerning violation of administrative rules and regulations.
In 8 years in defending employees, this is one area that I have never seen a supervisor or human resource specialist do correctly. Every investigation that I have seen the supervisor interviews every lead that they can before ever asking the "Employee" what happened, etc.
According to the statutes, once an employee has been identified they need to interview the employee before interviewing witnesses, etc, (there are a few exceptions). In doing this they violate the accused privacy rights, and in fact they often commit a criminal offense if they intentionally violate the privacy rights of the accused.
It is amazing to me that a supervisor, or espescially a human resource specialist who should know better, can justify committing a criminal offense in investigating a violation of administrative rule.
It also brings up in my mind, whether any evidence such as witness statements, etc that is gathered is admissable. It is the same principle as questioning an accused in a criminal case without giving them their Miranda rights, or a search without a search warrant.

Re: Planned future series

Chief Steward
Treasury
Fri Aug 4, 2006 9:55 AM
After 5 years of defending Treasury employees accused of conduct violations and unacceptable performance, I have noted that many managers do not seem to have a lot of training in how to proceed with a disciplinary action. Managers who follow the rules regarding Douglas factors and progressive discipline and documenting unacceptable behavior often prevail

What are the specific Privacy Act statutes that are being violated by not interviewing the accused employee before interviewing witnesses? Are their any Federal Circuit court cases where this issue has been addressed? I would hate to think I have missed an issue that will counter a too zealous disciplinary action.

Re: Planned future series

Manager
DOT
Fri Aug 4, 2006 8:22 PM
A Weingarten or Investigative meeting does not have any requirement to interview the employee in question prior to gathering information. Obviously there is already a question regarding a violation so why would you have an investigative meeting without all the facts? This would only lead to additional meetings. Also gathering of facts and interviewing other employees on work related situations is not an invasion of privacy and is certainly not a criminal act. The employee has the right to question any facts disclosed in the investigative meeting.
Investigations are usually regarding misconduct rather than actual criminal activities. I would imagine in rare instances criminal actions could be discovered but mostly this is a job for the FBI not the manager. This is not a criminal trial in the legal system but a relatively informal investigation. Miranda Rights regarding evidence are totally unrelated.

Helpful

Mr.
Beach Marine Services
Sun Apr 1, 2007 3:29 PM

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The Witness Affidavit template has been a great help to me. I was wondering how to format a witness's testimony for a civil case that I opened and this hit the nail on the head!! Thanks for the big help.

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