Accountant USDA Forest Service Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:16 AM
What a bunch of "crabs ina pot!!!" People so afraid someone is going to advance before them. Now that's a typical governmental employee!! It's no wonder the operation works as it does. What's more, if someone "knows" someone for a job, 52 weeks will pass fast enough. If someone is well educated, catches on fast, can learn the systems, why not push them through for the betterment of the organization?
getting this right?
Consultant none Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:31 AM
Maybe I misunderstand the federal system, but once you have status, can't you apply your private experience and education as quals to levels above TIG, as long as you're within the AOC?
Seems to me people who are appointed at low levels may be overestimating their private experience. If they have an issue with not being qualified at higher grades, they should take it up the the HR specialists who read their resumes.
Even so, most series allow for two grade jumps up to GS-11. Spending an additional 4 years to go from 11 to 15 is not terribly long. I am in the private sector and in my organization it is the norm to wait 3-5 years for a single promotion.
Re: getting this right?
Benefis Counselor (retired) VA Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:55 PM
Time in grade applies in Merit Promotion situations but there are (rare) ways around. Imagine someone qualified to be a computer specialist GS-11 but who takes a GS-5 computer operator job out of desperation. If that GS-11 is announced under Merit Promotion, our guy/gal cannot compete. If the same job is being listed by OPM, he can apply and get rated. If he rates high enough, his agency can then take him off the OPM list of eligibles. In effect, he goes out the door as a GS-5 and comes right back in again as a new-hire GS-11. He could be a new-hire through a new appointment as an outstanding scholar, as a severly disabled person or a severely disabled veteran. In each case, he is NOT competing under MP due to TIG restrictions.
Promotions
Forestry Techinician USDA FS Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:34 AM
I have been around the agency for quite some time and I have seen more than one time whereby someone was promoted when they definitely ARE NOT qualified to do the position. Some times they got such for whining or brown nosing, other times it was more or less to get rid of that person to another unit. What is wrong with both pictures? Everything when it comes to the honest, hard working folks of this agency (which there are more of that type than the other, but the other happens frequently). It is highly unfair to the valued workers!
Time in Grade Requirement
Federal employee Federal government Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:47 AM
The Federal government is different from the private sector. Our jobs are different; we have legal rules we must follow, and our processes are different. And I do not mean this in a bad way. You cannot just walk off of the street, even if you have private sector experience and advanced degrees, and start working at full capacity. There is a learning curve. I don't understand why 1 year is so long to wait for a promotion. I know someone can move up faster in the private sector but people can also be demoted and fired in the private sector. This rarely happens in the government and only under extreme cases. Federal emloyees are special and I am very proud of all of us. We are subject to a lot of political pressures and shenanigans. Everyone wants to put their mark on the place before they leave and earn the big bucks. But career employees stick around to clean up the mess, when necessary. We are not here for the money. We really care about the jobs we do and the people we serve.
Life the time in grade restrictions
Logistics Manager USAF Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:49 AM
Lifting the time in grade restrictions will allow the government to better promote the more qualified people. It will allow the government to recruit a higher caliber employees that the government is currently losing to outside businesses. I am glad to see these old business practices going away. Performance=promotion...
No TIG!
Budget Analyst Internal Revenue Service Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:51 AM
I strongly disagree with the TIG requirement. It doesn't make sense to me that when a job is announced on the outside (USAJOBS) there is no TIG requirement but when announced internally they are restricted by TIG.
Some of those I've seen promoted without education have poor writing skills and trouble with effective oral communication (somewhat unprofessional). These are the types of skills that come along with education, along with a number of others.
Its not to say that the person with education is the best qualified at every step, but they certainly should not be discounted simply due to TIG. And yes, in some instances they are the better candidate.
On the subject of "Favorites being promoted" - I don't see how education encourages such things. If someone is looking to promote a favorite, they will find some other way besides looking at education. Besides, the person with education wouldn't need any help since they would qualify on their own with no TIG restriction.
Re: No TIG!
Budget Analyst ARMY Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:31 AM
I do not agree that education is the answer. We have "so-called managers" that have degrees and still cannot write, spell, or even communicate to their employees. I am a firm believer that you educate yourself, no college degree can teach me how to speak, you learn by trial and error. I attended college, some teachers were there to teach, others didnt care if I learned anything. They teach you to write their way, and that is not always the right way. I taught myself throughout my career, by reading regulations and everything pertaining to my office. I observed and paid attention. So dont try to push education on everyone, common sense and learning on your own is the best way.
Re: No TIG!
Budget Analyst Internal Revenue Service Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:39 AM
I never said education is the answer. My argument is not to exclude education from consideration. There is no good reason to exclude education in my view, only benefits by opening up the field of possible applicants. And those additional applicants add some tough competition, which is why I believe that many people are afraid to vote to lift the TIG restrictions.
Education itself shouldn't be the only requirement for obtaining a position, but neither should the length of time you have been employed.
Time in Grade Survey Results
HR Manager DOT Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:05 AM
I am always amazed and amused by comments that managers are always trying to promote their "favorites." No question about it, managers do have favorites. But my 30 years experience in HR indicates it is justified in most cases. Suppose a manager can promote one person in his/her organization: either an indiviudal who is a model employee, works hard, loves the work he/she is doing, does his/her work right the first time, and readily volunteers to take on extra work, or someone who does what he/she is told - and no more, complains about the work they do, and never volunteers for any work projects. A good manager will want to select the former employee, even if he/she is junior to the other employee. Let's face it, following fair employment practices does not mean everyone must be treated exactly the same. Demonstrated quality performance should trump time spent in a position.
Re: Time in Grade Survey Results
Retired SSA Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:23 AM
While I can certainly see the merit of your argument, I believe an important consideration has been overlooked. There does not exist a truly objective rating and evaluation system. And therein lies the problem. When rating and evaluating employee performance many, if not most, rating officials tend to look through 'rose colored glasses.' This is characteristic of the human condition. We tend to favor and gravitate toward those individuals we like, often times overlooking those things that must be looked at in a fair rating. I'm not saying this happens all the time, but it does happen more than it should.
There are verifiable performance numerical stats in place. But, in all honesty, these stats can be easily manipulated by rating officials. And if anyone thinks otherwise, they are not living in the 'real' world.
HR personnel can rely only on information given them. They are not in the work unit observing employee performance.
Re: Time in Grade Survey Results
Benefis Counselor (retired) VA Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:05 PM
We have all seen the "new" employee who, with only a few years experience, has become the "go to" person for the tough work. The "old timers" use his/her advice and the supervisors take the tough tasks to this "new" employee. In the Merit Promotion process at VA, at least one person on the MP panel was a supervisor working with the job material to be done in the position to be filled. That supe. has a vested interest in getting someone who will do the work well and make that supervisor plus others up the line look good.
1226 respondents
Director, Community Support Policy DON Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:18 AM
Of the thousands of GS employees I would not consider 1226 respondents to be a true reflection of GS employees opinion on the subj. But this small group does make for a story
Re: 1226 respondents
LER Specialist DHS Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:35 AM
Actually, to achieve statistical reliability in a study only requires about 1000 to1500 participants using methods that include random sampling. Even given the fact that the participants in this survey are self-selected, rather than randomly selected, with more than 1200 participants you are still seeing a fairly representative samle of of the mind set of Federal empoloyees on this subject.
Re: 1226 respondents
Program Analyst FAA Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:59 PM
The sample is of fedsmith readers who I imagine are fairly well tenured employees who may have a bias toward keeping the time-in-grade restriction. Though the fact is the respondends could be anyone, gov or not.
Time in Grade
Personnel Manager Air Force Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:25 AM
I see a dychotomy: those new to government seemed to be in favor of getting rid of T-i-G; those with years of government service see the merits of T-i-G.
If you waited 10 years, you'd get the same split. Newbies think is't not to their advantage and mature employees think it makes a sense. Wissdom comes with age and experience!!!
Re: Time in Grade
Human Resources Specialist DOI Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:37 PM
I agree - there is a distinctive difference between government workers and private sector workers. There is a culture within the government that must be learned. What I see is a new group of individuals entering the government who are of the "instance gratification" era. They want to see immediate results for their actions and believe just because they have a degree (in some cases, not all) that they are the better qualified candidate; therefore, they are entitled to better benefits, including pay. This is not so - Anyone entering a position must prove that they can perform at the highest level before they should be allowed to earn the highest level (grade and/or salary). What about problem employees – at this time we can withhold a WGI as incentive for the employee to improve performance – take it away and there is no incentive for improvement. There will be too much abuse and there are plenty of other incentives available to recruit without having to change the WGI rules.
Favor removal of TIG
HR manager USDA Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:47 AM
In today's highly competitive environment, the restrictive TIG is not helping us attract and retain the best employees. I am ot surprised that those who have been in Federal service may view it less favorably than those new to the Federal govt...I have been in th Govt for 28 years but I think it is time to give folks credit for other experiences they have when applying for promotion rather than have them wait years to satsfy TIG.
time in grade restrictions
Revenue Agent Internal Revenue Service Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:03 AM
There re pros and cons on both sides. Obviously older personnel, many of whom come here to have health benefits in retirement and obsolete hiring rules that bring in a Masters holder as a 5 would want them abolished. However, my concern is that the elimination in conjunction with the proposed pay for performance plans could create a major boondoggle.
Time In Grade Restrictions
Legal Admin. Assistant U.S. Attorneys Office Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:29 PM
I believe the time in grade restrictions should be lifted. I believe it should be tried across the government to see how it would work.
Time-in-grade promotions
Claims Representative Social Security Administration Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:45 PM
I have been held back by the time-in-grade requirements watching others get promoted around me that produced less and lower quality work than I. It is not fair to me nor the public we serve to favor those that just drone along doing mediocre work when there is a highly qualified hard worker available for promotion. Those that have been with the agency for longer should be better qualified than a new hire because of their experience. However, if they aren't the best then they do not deserve to move up. I believe doing away with the time in grade requirement with increase competition and productivity within the agency. We have those that may abuse this by promoting the Good Old Boys, but it is not a good enough reason to restrict highly eligible people from even being considered for promotion do to their length of service.
Time-in-Grade
Program Technician Farm Service Agency Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:07 PM
If Time-In-Grade restrictions are removed it will allow more favortism with supervisors. I have seen people who do the least work granted time off awards or with in grade increases and it was not based on their work but favortism. Removing the time-in-grade will only allow this to happen more.
TIG what about TGIF
Examiner OCC Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:05 PM
When pay-for-performance was introduced at our agency about 5 years ago, it was enthusastically embraced as 90 percent of the employees thought they would be rated in the top 10 percent. However, the system we have is total nontransparent, employees are confused as to what you have to do to get a higher rating, etc. Subsequently the majority of employees are now less than enthusastic about the PFP system.
TIG seems to be a similar proposal, where 90 percent of the people think they are deserving and will benefit but actually only 10 percent will benefit. It is because federal managers have received insufficient performance management training and candidly don't do it very well.
OPM is only willing to offer a regulation that gives managers total discretion to do whatever they please, whenever they please. For such a system to work, there must be controls, transparency and first and foremost the employees must believe the new system is fair.
Re: TIG what about TGIF
Nameless, Faceless Nobody DOD Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:10 PM
You used one really outstanding word: (non)Transparent!
If all the process were transparent then many of the gripes would take care of themselves. If not, then the gripes would have clear evidence to fight with and maybe effect real change. (Once the initial shock and confusion of actually knowing "the rest of the story" wore off.)
T-I-G, PFP, hiring...transparency could only help
Grade Restriction
ATCS FAA Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:30 PM
It is my understanding that most job spec codes grade out at some point based on the tasks required to perform that job cat. so by removing the time in grade restriction people will move to the top grade for the position much quicker, then wait for step levels. two things will happen at that point; Managers will not have properly budgeted for that rapid increases in human capital expense. there will program short falls, cuts will come out of operating expenses and positions will be cut. Service will go un-rendered to the public and contracts will be written to cover the gaps, the contract money will come out of other area. which will lead to more A76 situations Career GS numbers will decrease and contractor will fail to perform to expectation and the beat goes on.
Lose vs. Keep TIG Restriction
Claims Representative Social Security Administration Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:06 PM
I'm a little on the fence on this one. I came from the private sector a little over 10 years ago with management/supervisory experience and still have not gotten into management with my agency. I have also seen those without experience be promoted as soon as they can meet the TIG. I tried to believe in that policy but after seeing it what I consider at it's worse, it still makes me sick to see it in every vacancy announcement. My real belief is in myself that I am doing a great job because I love my job and the people I help day in and day out. I just pray daily for myself to see past the bureaucracy and continue to take care of the public. It's not that I have given up on promotion, but I can't allow it to take over my life. I believe in myself and my ability to make a difference in this agcy. I will have to be a part of a system that is still not perfect in promoting those that are truly deserving based on skills and abilities even though that too is a part of every vac annc
Removing time-in-grade restrictions
Investigator EEOC Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:25 AM
I could see why employees have opted in favor of retaining the time-in-grade restrictions. My view is that some people may see it as unfair. While others may view it as being rewarded for a job well done. However, the problem that I see is that employees who are non deserving will receive the time-in-grade increase and the employees who truly deserve it will not get it. In my past work experience, I have seen how an employee with poor attendance and work ethics gets awarded over and over again. I have also seen employees who are exemplary and deliver the best work product and who do not have a time and attendance problem get shafted without any recognition. Therefore, we all due respect the time-in-grade restrictions should remain for all.
Accelerated TIG does occur...
Gils Son Treasury Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:00 PM
Accelerated TIG does occur in some agencies due to labor agreements and they seem to work well. In my agency, employees can receive a QSI by rating all '5's on an annual performance rating. It is up to management to offer it however, but it is a relatively transparent process and because the information must be shared with the negotiating union, the carping about it is pretty minimal. There is no reason that this could not be used as a template for other agencies.
Ridiculous system
Program Specialist DHS Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:18 PM
I was hired as a mid-career hire a little over a year ago after serving as senior mgr in state government after moving to DC to marry.
My 1st DC job was not a good fit and so I was anxious to get back into public service. I unfortunately made a poor strategic decision and accepted a GS-11 position at DHS. I had no idea that I would be stuck in this outdated time-in-grade system.
I had interviewed for jobs as high as a GS-15 but kept losing out to internal candidates. I felt that if I could just get my foot in the door, I could prove my value to my employer and have opportunities to advance and contribute.
My office has had much turnover since I arrived. Because of this, and hopefully due to my hard work, I have had opportunities to do amazing, difficult, and creative work. But I am not compensated for the work I am doing, however, even my bosses admit this.
Its a crazy system that doesn't allow the gvmt to utilitize talents that exist within its ranks.
Retaining Time-in-Grade Restrictions for Promotion
Loan Analyst Department of Education Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:02 AM
If top quality, high producing individuals are not being rated fairly now under the present system and the only promotions given are the "Time-in-Grade, what could these individuals expect once that safety net is removed. Too often, early step increases & meritorious cash awards are given to favorites who can't do the job effectively. This practice was evident under the "Outstanding Scholar Program"
arbitrary consequence
Bio Sci Tech Interior Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:21 PM
I don't mind some aspects of TIG, but some of it seems arbtrary. I started as a GS-5 when I was finishing my Master's degree. I was stuck starting from the GS-5 level when I finished my degree, because of TIG. But I didn't mind that so much, since I knew I would advance in a few years. But I recently applied for a 7/9/11 position. I am doubly-qualified for the GS 9 (over one year at a GS 7, AND a Master's degree). But I recently (less than one year) got a promotion in my current job (a 7/8/9) from a GS 7 to a GS 8. Now I'm being told that I wouldn't qualify for the 9 in the new job, since I've been in the GS 8 for less than one year, even though the new job doesn't even have a GS-8! Furthermore, the HR lady told me that if I didn't indicate that I was applying for the GS-7 or 9 on my application, that I would not be considered at all. I did indicate both 7 and 9, but this seems to be a completely arbitrary consequence of the TIG system...
Promotions between grades
GSA employee GSA Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:41 AM
GSA makes a great effort to hire interns, at either GS-7 or GS-9, then promotes them in two years to the GS-12. Exceptional amounts of money are spent on travel/training and with few exceptions, the interns are only looking for their GS-13 somewhere. The majority of interns "know everything there is to know" within six months and they disdain workers with more years of experience and service...and will not expend any time or effort to learn anything from the more experienced employees. It is all about promotions for the interns. The Intern program in GSA should be about work product experience instead of the way it is now where they show up and get promoted anyway without doing a thing except surfing the internet. These new employees won't be around to keep the agency operational and the agency has to start recruiting all over again.
Time in Grade
Consultant Treasury Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:08 PM
Right now I believe TIG sucks, I have been with the agency I am with for over ten years. The first five I had a Bachelors degree, the other Five an MBA and I have yet to reach a grade 9, while external candidates are coming in at a grade 9. I believe the system has an adverse impact on those that are in it. I would love to find another position but how easy is that in today's economy? I perform work, mediate meetins and/or teach others that are making decisions at grade 13 and 14 level and I feel like my education and knowledge will be worthless since it is not utilized to it's full potential. Even with all of this I do not believe TIG should be removed, but revised, education and previous experience should be weighted maybe not as heavily but it should have a determining factor with internal applications.
Get Rid of TIG Requirements
Project Manager USMC Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:17 AM
I was on active duty filling the position I am in now. I transferred to another area, retired, and applied back here as a GS-11 Project Manager. I have over 4 years experience here in the organization. They just hired the supervisor position, and I was not qualified, as I have only been in civil service for 4 months, even though I spent 3 1/2 years here in the same position on active duty. I have my BS, and am close to my Master's. How can anyone say it is fair that I should have to wait a year. TIG is all about longevity vice quality. If you are good enough, you will get the job, no matter how long you have been in civil service.
Concerned
HR Specialist IRS Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:24 PM
THis place already needs to be investigated for administrative issues, like serious tardiness, leave abuse, reguklations violations etc. Removing the time in grade requirement would only add to an already very troubled agency ran by idiots at the top in the management, especially in my department.
Time in Grade
Food Service Worker Lyons Veterans Administration Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:39 PM
What happen to on the job training that use to be the Government way. I think it would be more feasible to move the next person up in line, it would get rid of the favortism in the workplace playing one person against the next causing hard feelings.
Yes to eliminating TIG requirement
Supervisor USDA Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:04 PM
I started with my agency Jan-2009 as a GS07. Without the removal of the TIG I would have had to wait a year for promotion to GS09. I have a Master degree with 4 years of Supervisory experience and in May-2009 I will have the opportunity to utilize my education and experience in a more challenging GS09 position. I believe that the TIG requirement is being lifted to put the newly hired qualified federal employees on track and in placed for the future surge of pending retirements. Don't overlook that even though the TIG requirement is going to be lifted one still has to possess the technical skills, experience, or degree needed to qualify for the level been promoted to if he/she was not hired in a targeted position (i.e. 09/11) were that promotion will be automatic if performed to standards. I am glad that the removal of the TIG will now allow substandard, mediocre, and superstars the opportunity to compete for the promotion. May the best qualified woman or man wins.
time in grade elimination
firefighter/paramedic federal fire dept. hawaii Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:53 PM
I was hired with tens years of field experience and education from one of the top EMS systems in the nations and two BA's and an AS, yet I was required to start at the GS 3 level. I'm certified and required to do the same job as the GS 9 firefighter/paramedics but it will take me 7 years to reach my target. If the federal goverment wants to hire and reward the best and brightest, elimination of time and grade is long over due. Also, just because a person has sat in a position for 20 years doesn't equate to increase knowledge of that position. Many of the "new" guys run circles around the "veterans" in my department.
removing time in grade
gruny federal Tue May 12, 2009 9:28 AM
just another way to promote those w/ their noses up the supers arse. I could have 10 years at time in grade but because certain agencies only allow so many bands or no bands at that title one can not move up unless you move. Not a very good use of manpower and experience, but it is the government way.
Anyway I thought BO was going to lead us out of the dessert?
Time in Grade Restrictions
Program Analyst HHS Mon May 18, 2009 11:57 AM
I would like to know the demographics of those who were polled. I am sure that that who were against revoking the time in grade restrictions have been with the federal government for years and have little if any education beyond high school. I have been in the fed gov. for 10 years and in that time I have earned a Master's degree. However, someone with only a high school diploma is eligible for a promotion because they were in the fed govt since high school. This person has no updated skills and have no intention on improving themselves. I think this lack of drive should not be rewarded.
Time in Grade Survey Results
ISO USCIS Tue May 19, 2009 10:04 AM
What do you say about a supervisor that have kept you from a promotion so that you could do her work and make her shine in front of upper management. She
does not know the job but keep you around to do her job. It is not what you know but who you know.
She has helped to promote her favorites employees within her office. Now that my job has been renamed it has given me an opportunity for advancement. I have a new supervisor and he is pleased with my work. I am a hard worker and I know that if you keep working hard it will pay off. I believe that TIG should stay at 52 weeks. Do not give someone like my ex supervisor more power to promote her friends or favorites employees.
Away with Time In Grade Restriction
Program Analyst ICE Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:56 AM
This give those of us an opportunity to excel into another position when being qualified for the position, versus waiting a full year before you can apply for the next grade to apply skills that are essential to the mission of an agency.
c/mon
Logistics DOD Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:19 PM
It seems as though the well cured individuals within the gov. are in need of retirement. The true problem is complacency with a job that is not very competitive. Out with the old and in with the new. I say lead, follow, or get out of the way. My degree and experience are in need of a job that I do not want to wait for, much less a year.
It effects me !
Analyst AF Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:29 AM
I am a high caliber employee who was recently hired by AF. I have a master’s degree from a very good school. I work my head off. I make the change, improve the process. I am multi functional. yet, i have ti wait at least year to be able to apply for a 13 position whereas, less qualified long time federal employees who made the 12 after 20 year of struggle are eligible to apply for a 13 position but not I.
Now, who does the AF need, a slow achiever and someone like me who works hard and perform as much as 3 traditional federal employees?
Of course most folks out there are opposing the lifting of restrictions. It will affect those who do not work hard enough by giving more opportunity to those who work hard.
Let's change the system to be more in tune with 21st Century.
Re: It effects me !
Logistics DOD Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 PM
Absolutely!
Yes, some managers offer less than other’s or make bad choices, yet people still progress toward a common goal. Mine was to complete my degree, raise a family, and fulfill my obligation to the government as a full time employee. If I can do it, so can you. To me, the objective is to evolve into a continued organization of improvement, and not to stagnate with values of the stone age. "COMMITMENT OR RETIREMENT."
TIG restrictions
Budget Analyst USAF Sun Aug 9, 2009 10:33 PM
I understand that removing the TIG restrictions would cause some problems with favoratism and abuse; however, the TIG system is not doing much to benefit the government either. Nothing is more frustrating than being passed up for a job that I am qualified to perform because I haven't served my required TIG. When I started with civil service, I had little more then a high school education and started as a GS-4. Since that time, with a lot of hard work, I have earned my BS and MBA degrees and I am only sitting at a GS-7 because I can only apply for promotion positions after a year of sitting in the next lower position. It has been said that people in my position don't deserve a higher rank until we earn it. I have been in civil service for a few years and was prior active duty. I am not looking for instant gratification, I simply want to have the opportunity to compete for the jobs for which I feel I am qualified.
Time in grade restrictions...
USDA Forest Service
Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:16 AM
What a bunch of "crabs ina pot!!!" People so afraid someone is going to advance before them. Now that's a typical governmental employee!! It's no wonder the operation works as it does. What's more, if someone "knows" someone for a job, 52 weeks will pass fast enough. If someone is well educated, catches on fast, can learn the systems, why not push them through for the betterment of the organization?
getting this right?
none
Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:31 AM
Maybe I misunderstand the federal system, but once you have status, can't you apply your private experience and education as quals to levels above TIG, as long as you're within the AOC?
Seems to me people who are appointed at low levels may be overestimating their private experience. If they have an issue with not being qualified at higher grades, they should take it up the the HR specialists who read their resumes.
Even so, most series allow for two grade jumps up to GS-11. Spending an additional 4 years to go from 11 to 15 is not terribly long. I am in the private sector and in my organization it is the norm to wait 3-5 years for a single promotion.
Re: getting this right?
VA
Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:55 PM
Promotions
USDA FS
Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:34 AM
I have been around the agency for quite some time and I have seen more than one time whereby someone was promoted when they definitely ARE NOT qualified to do the position. Some times they got such for whining or brown nosing, other times it was more or less to get rid of that person to another unit. What is wrong with both pictures? Everything when it comes to the honest, hard working folks of this agency (which there are more of that type than the other, but the other happens frequently). It is highly unfair to the valued workers!
Time in Grade Requirement
Federal government
Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:47 AM
The Federal government is different from the private sector. Our jobs are different; we have legal rules we must follow, and our processes are different. And I do not mean this in a bad way. You cannot just walk off of the street, even if you have private sector experience and advanced degrees, and start working at full capacity. There is a learning curve. I don't understand why 1 year is so long to wait for a promotion. I know someone can move up faster in the private sector but people can also be demoted and fired in the private sector. This rarely happens in the government and only under extreme cases. Federal emloyees are special and I am very proud of all of us. We are subject to a lot of political pressures and shenanigans. Everyone wants to put their mark on the place before they leave and earn the big bucks. But career employees stick around to clean up the mess, when necessary. We are not here for the money. We really care about the jobs we do and the people we serve.
Life the time in grade restrictions
USAF
Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:49 AM
Lifting the time in grade restrictions will allow the government to better promote the more qualified people. It will allow the government to recruit a higher caliber employees that the government is currently losing to outside businesses. I am glad to see these old business practices going away. Performance=promotion...
No TIG!
Internal Revenue Service
Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:51 AM
I strongly disagree with the TIG requirement. It doesn't make sense to me that when a job is announced on the outside (USAJOBS) there is no TIG requirement but when announced internally they are restricted by TIG.
Some of those I've seen promoted without education have poor writing skills and trouble with effective oral communication (somewhat unprofessional). These are the types of skills that come along with education, along with a number of others.
Its not to say that the person with education is the best qualified at every step, but they certainly should not be discounted simply due to TIG. And yes, in some instances they are the better candidate.
On the subject of "Favorites being promoted" - I don't see how education encourages such things. If someone is looking to promote a favorite, they will find some other way besides looking at education. Besides, the person with education wouldn't need any help since they would qualify on their own with no TIG restriction.
Re: No TIG!
ARMY
Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:31 AM
Re: No TIG!
Internal Revenue Service
Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:39 AM
Education itself shouldn't be the only requirement for obtaining a position, but neither should the length of time you have been employed.
Time in Grade Survey Results
DOT
Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:05 AM
I am always amazed and amused by comments that managers are always trying to promote their "favorites." No question about it, managers do have favorites. But my 30 years experience in HR indicates it is justified in most cases. Suppose a manager can promote one person in his/her organization: either an indiviudal who is a model employee, works hard, loves the work he/she is doing, does his/her work right the first time, and readily volunteers to take on extra work, or someone who does what he/she is told - and no more, complains about the work they do, and never volunteers for any work projects. A good manager will want to select the former employee, even if he/she is junior to the other employee. Let's face it, following fair employment practices does not mean everyone must be treated exactly the same. Demonstrated quality performance should trump time spent in a position.
Re: Time in Grade Survey Results
SSA
Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:23 AM
There are verifiable performance numerical stats in place. But, in all honesty, these stats can be easily manipulated by rating officials. And if anyone thinks otherwise, they are not living in the 'real' world.
HR personnel can rely only on information given them. They are not in the work unit observing employee performance.
Re: Time in Grade Survey Results
VA
Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:05 PM
1226 respondents
DON
Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:18 AM
Of the thousands of GS employees I would not consider 1226 respondents to be a true reflection of GS employees opinion on the subj. But this small group does make for a story
Re: 1226 respondents
DHS
Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:35 AM
Re: 1226 respondents
FAA
Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:59 PM
Time in Grade
Air Force
Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:25 AM
I see a dychotomy: those new to government seemed to be in favor of getting rid of T-i-G; those with years of government service see the merits of T-i-G.
If you waited 10 years, you'd get the same split. Newbies think is't not to their advantage and mature employees think it makes a sense. Wissdom comes with age and experience!!!
Re: Time in Grade
DOI
Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:37 PM
Favor removal of TIG
USDA
Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:47 AM
In today's highly competitive environment, the restrictive TIG is not helping us attract and retain the best employees. I am ot surprised that those who have been in Federal service may view it less favorably than those new to the Federal govt...I have been in th Govt for 28 years but I think it is time to give folks credit for other experiences they have when applying for promotion rather than have them wait years to satsfy TIG.
time in grade restrictions
Internal Revenue Service
Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:03 AM
There re pros and cons on both sides. Obviously older personnel, many of whom come here to have health benefits in retirement and obsolete hiring rules that bring in a Masters holder as a 5 would want them abolished. However, my concern is that the elimination in conjunction with the proposed pay for performance plans could create a major boondoggle.
Time In Grade Restrictions
U.S. Attorneys Office
Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:29 PM
I believe the time in grade restrictions should be lifted. I believe it should be tried across the government to see how it would work.
Time-in-grade promotions
Social Security Administration
Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:45 PM
I have been held back by the time-in-grade requirements watching others get promoted around me that produced less and lower quality work than I. It is not fair to me nor the public we serve to favor those that just drone along doing mediocre work when there is a highly qualified hard worker available for promotion. Those that have been with the agency for longer should be better qualified than a new hire because of their experience. However, if they aren't the best then they do not deserve to move up. I believe doing away with the time in grade requirement with increase competition and productivity within the agency. We have those that may abuse this by promoting the Good Old Boys, but it is not a good enough reason to restrict highly eligible people from even being considered for promotion do to their length of service.
Time-in-Grade
Farm Service Agency
Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:07 PM
If Time-In-Grade restrictions are removed it will allow more favortism with supervisors. I have seen people who do the least work granted time off awards or with in grade increases and it was not based on their work but favortism. Removing the time-in-grade will only allow this to happen more.
TIG what about TGIF
OCC
Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:05 PM
When pay-for-performance was introduced at our agency about 5 years ago, it was enthusastically embraced as 90 percent of the employees thought they would be rated in the top 10 percent. However, the system we have is total nontransparent, employees are confused as to what you have to do to get a higher rating, etc. Subsequently the majority of employees are now less than enthusastic about the PFP system.
TIG seems to be a similar proposal, where 90 percent of the people think they are deserving and will benefit but actually only 10 percent will benefit. It is because federal managers have received insufficient performance management training and candidly don't do it very well.
OPM is only willing to offer a regulation that gives managers total discretion to do whatever they please, whenever they please. For such a system to work, there must be controls, transparency and first and foremost the employees must believe the new system is fair.
Re: TIG what about TGIF
DOD
Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:10 PM
If all the process were transparent then many of the gripes would take care of themselves. If not, then the gripes would have clear evidence to fight with and maybe effect real change. (Once the initial shock and confusion of actually knowing "the rest of the story" wore off.)
T-I-G, PFP, hiring...transparency could only help
Grade Restriction
FAA
Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:30 PM
It is my understanding that most job spec codes grade out at some point based on the tasks required to perform that job cat. so by removing the time in grade restriction people will move to the top grade for the position much quicker, then wait for step levels. two things will happen at that point; Managers will not have properly budgeted for that rapid increases in human capital expense. there will program short falls, cuts will come out of operating expenses and positions will be cut. Service will go un-rendered to the public and contracts will be written to cover the gaps, the contract money will come out of other area. which will lead to more A76 situations Career GS numbers will decrease and contractor will fail to perform to expectation and the beat goes on.
Lose vs. Keep TIG Restriction
Social Security Administration
Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:06 PM
I'm a little on the fence on this one. I came from the private sector a little over 10 years ago with management/supervisory experience and still have not gotten into management with my agency. I have also seen those without experience be promoted as soon as they can meet the TIG. I tried to believe in that policy but after seeing it what I consider at it's worse, it still makes me sick to see it in every vacancy announcement. My real belief is in myself that I am doing a great job because I love my job and the people I help day in and day out. I just pray daily for myself to see past the bureaucracy and continue to take care of the public. It's not that I have given up on promotion, but I can't allow it to take over my life. I believe in myself and my ability to make a difference in this agcy. I will have to be a part of a system that is still not perfect in promoting those that are truly deserving based on skills and abilities even though that too is a part of every vac annc
Removing time-in-grade restrictions
EEOC
Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:25 AM
I could see why employees have opted in favor of retaining the time-in-grade restrictions. My view is that some people may see it as unfair. While others may view it as being rewarded for a job well done. However, the problem that I see is that employees who are non deserving will receive the time-in-grade increase and the employees who truly deserve it will not get it. In my past work experience, I have seen how an employee with poor attendance and work ethics gets awarded over and over again. I have also seen employees who are exemplary and deliver the best work product and who do not have a time and attendance problem get shafted without any recognition. Therefore, we all due respect the time-in-grade restrictions should remain for all.
Accelerated TIG does occur...
Treasury
Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:00 PM
Accelerated TIG does occur in some agencies due to labor agreements and they seem to work well. In my agency, employees can receive a QSI by rating all '5's on an annual performance rating. It is up to management to offer it however, but it is a relatively transparent process and because the information must be shared with the negotiating union, the carping about it is pretty minimal. There is no reason that this could not be used as a template for other agencies.
Ridiculous system
DHS
Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:18 PM
I was hired as a mid-career hire a little over a year ago after serving as senior mgr in state government after moving to DC to marry.
My 1st DC job was not a good fit and so I was anxious to get back into public service. I unfortunately made a poor strategic decision and accepted a GS-11 position at DHS. I had no idea that I would be stuck in this outdated time-in-grade system.
I had interviewed for jobs as high as a GS-15 but kept losing out to internal candidates. I felt that if I could just get my foot in the door, I could prove my value to my employer and have opportunities to advance and contribute.
My office has had much turnover since I arrived. Because of this, and hopefully due to my hard work, I have had opportunities to do amazing, difficult, and creative work. But I am not compensated for the work I am doing, however, even my bosses admit this.
Its a crazy system that doesn't allow the gvmt to utilitize talents that exist within its ranks.
Retaining Time-in-Grade Restrictions for Promotion
Department of Education
Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:02 AM
If top quality, high producing individuals are not being rated fairly now under the present system and the only promotions given are the "Time-in-Grade, what could these individuals expect once that safety net is removed. Too often, early step increases & meritorious cash awards are given to favorites who can't do the job effectively. This practice was evident under the "Outstanding Scholar Program"
arbitrary consequence
Interior
Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:21 PM
I don't mind some aspects of TIG, but some of it seems arbtrary. I started as a GS-5 when I was finishing my Master's degree. I was stuck starting from the GS-5 level when I finished my degree, because of TIG. But I didn't mind that so much, since I knew I would advance in a few years. But I recently applied for a 7/9/11 position. I am doubly-qualified for the GS 9 (over one year at a GS 7, AND a Master's degree). But I recently (less than one year) got a promotion in my current job (a 7/8/9) from a GS 7 to a GS 8. Now I'm being told that I wouldn't qualify for the 9 in the new job, since I've been in the GS 8 for less than one year, even though the new job doesn't even have a GS-8! Furthermore, the HR lady told me that if I didn't indicate that I was applying for the GS-7 or 9 on my application, that I would not be considered at all. I did indicate both 7 and 9, but this seems to be a completely arbitrary consequence of the TIG system...
Promotions between grades
GSA
Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:41 AM
GSA makes a great effort to hire interns, at either GS-7 or GS-9, then promotes them in two years to the GS-12. Exceptional amounts of money are spent on travel/training and with few exceptions, the interns are only looking for their GS-13 somewhere. The majority of interns "know everything there is to know" within six months and they disdain workers with more years of experience and service...and will not expend any time or effort to learn anything from the more experienced employees. It is all about promotions for the interns. The Intern program in GSA should be about work product experience instead of the way it is now where they show up and get promoted anyway without doing a thing except surfing the internet. These new employees won't be around to keep the agency operational and the agency has to start recruiting all over again.
Time in Grade
Treasury
Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:08 PM
Right now I believe TIG sucks, I have been with the agency I am with for over ten years. The first five I had a Bachelors degree, the other Five an MBA and I have yet to reach a grade 9, while external candidates are coming in at a grade 9. I believe the system has an adverse impact on those that are in it. I would love to find another position but how easy is that in today's economy? I perform work, mediate meetins and/or teach others that are making decisions at grade 13 and 14 level and I feel like my education and knowledge will be worthless since it is not utilized to it's full potential. Even with all of this I do not believe TIG should be removed, but revised, education and previous experience should be weighted maybe not as heavily but it should have a determining factor with internal applications.
Get Rid of TIG Requirements
USMC
Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:17 AM
I was on active duty filling the position I am in now. I transferred to another area, retired, and applied back here as a GS-11 Project Manager. I have over 4 years experience here in the organization. They just hired the supervisor position, and I was not qualified, as I have only been in civil service for 4 months, even though I spent 3 1/2 years here in the same position on active duty. I have my BS, and am close to my Master's. How can anyone say it is fair that I should have to wait a year. TIG is all about longevity vice quality. If you are good enough, you will get the job, no matter how long you have been in civil service.
Concerned
IRS
Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:24 PM
THis place already needs to be investigated for administrative issues, like serious tardiness, leave abuse, reguklations violations etc. Removing the time in grade requirement would only add to an already very troubled agency ran by idiots at the top in the management, especially in my department.
Time in Grade
Lyons Veterans Administration
Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:39 PM
What happen to on the job training that use to be the Government way. I think it would be more feasible to move the next person up in line, it would get rid of the favortism in the workplace playing one person against the next causing hard feelings.
Yes to eliminating TIG requirement
USDA
Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:04 PM
I started with my agency Jan-2009 as a GS07. Without the removal of the TIG I would have had to wait a year for promotion to GS09. I have a Master degree with 4 years of Supervisory experience and in May-2009 I will have the opportunity to utilize my education and experience in a more challenging GS09 position. I believe that the TIG requirement is being lifted to put the newly hired qualified federal employees on track and in placed for the future surge of pending retirements. Don't overlook that even though the TIG requirement is going to be lifted one still has to possess the technical skills, experience, or degree needed to qualify for the level been promoted to if he/she was not hired in a targeted position (i.e. 09/11) were that promotion will be automatic if performed to standards. I am glad that the removal of the TIG will now allow substandard, mediocre, and superstars the opportunity to compete for the promotion. May the best qualified woman or man wins.
time in grade elimination
federal fire dept. hawaii
Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:53 PM
I was hired with tens years of field experience and education from one of the top EMS systems in the nations and two BA's and an AS, yet I was required to start at the GS 3 level. I'm certified and required to do the same job as the GS 9 firefighter/paramedics but it will take me 7 years to reach my target. If the federal goverment wants to hire and reward the best and brightest, elimination of time and grade is long over due. Also, just because a person has sat in a position for 20 years doesn't equate to increase knowledge of that position. Many of the "new" guys run circles around the "veterans" in my department.
removing time in grade
federal
Tue May 12, 2009 9:28 AM
just another way to promote those w/ their noses up the supers arse. I could have 10 years at time in grade but because certain agencies only allow so many bands or no bands at that title one can not move up unless you move. Not a very good use of manpower and experience, but it is the government way.
Anyway I thought BO was going to lead us out of the dessert?
Time in Grade Restrictions
HHS
Mon May 18, 2009 11:57 AM
I would like to know the demographics of those who were polled. I am sure that that who were against revoking the time in grade restrictions have been with the federal government for years and have little if any education beyond high school. I have been in the fed gov. for 10 years and in that time I have earned a Master's degree. However, someone with only a high school diploma is eligible for a promotion because they were in the fed govt since high school. This person has no updated skills and have no intention on improving themselves. I think this lack of drive should not be rewarded.
Time in Grade Survey Results
USCIS
Tue May 19, 2009 10:04 AM
What do you say about a supervisor that have kept you from a promotion so that you could do her work and make her shine in front of upper management. She
does not know the job but keep you around to do her job. It is not what you know but who you know.
She has helped to promote her favorites employees within her office. Now that my job has been renamed it has given me an opportunity for advancement. I have a new supervisor and he is pleased with my work. I am a hard worker and I know that if you keep working hard it will pay off. I believe that TIG should stay at 52 weeks. Do not give someone like my ex supervisor more power to promote her friends or favorites employees.
Away with Time In Grade Restriction
ICE
Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:56 AM
This give those of us an opportunity to excel into another position when being qualified for the position, versus waiting a full year before you can apply for the next grade to apply skills that are essential to the mission of an agency.
c/mon
DOD
Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:19 PM
It seems as though the well cured individuals within the gov. are in need of retirement. The true problem is complacency with a job that is not very competitive. Out with the old and in with the new. I say lead, follow, or get out of the way. My degree and experience are in need of a job that I do not want to wait for, much less a year.
It effects me !
AF
Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:29 AM
I am a high caliber employee who was recently hired by AF. I have a master’s degree from a very good school. I work my head off. I make the change, improve the process. I am multi functional. yet, i have ti wait at least year to be able to apply for a 13 position whereas, less qualified long time federal employees who made the 12 after 20 year of struggle are eligible to apply for a 13 position but not I.
Now, who does the AF need, a slow achiever and someone like me who works hard and perform as much as 3 traditional federal employees?
Of course most folks out there are opposing the lifting of restrictions. It will affect those who do not work hard enough by giving more opportunity to those who work hard.
Let's change the system to be more in tune with 21st Century.
Re: It effects me !
DOD
Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 PM
Yes, some managers offer less than other’s or make bad choices, yet people still progress toward a common goal. Mine was to complete my degree, raise a family, and fulfill my obligation to the government as a full time employee. If I can do it, so can you. To me, the objective is to evolve into a continued organization of improvement, and not to stagnate with values of the stone age. "COMMITMENT OR RETIREMENT."
TIG restrictions
USAF
Sun Aug 9, 2009 10:33 PM
I understand that removing the TIG restrictions would cause some problems with favoratism and abuse; however, the TIG system is not doing much to benefit the government either. Nothing is more frustrating than being passed up for a job that I am qualified to perform because I haven't served my required TIG. When I started with civil service, I had little more then a high school education and started as a GS-4. Since that time, with a lot of hard work, I have earned my BS and MBA degrees and I am only sitting at a GS-7 because I can only apply for promotion positions after a year of sitting in the next lower position. It has been said that people in my position don't deserve a higher rank until we earn it. I have been in civil service for a few years and was prior active duty. I am not looking for instant gratification, I simply want to have the opportunity to compete for the jobs for which I feel I am qualified.