While Mr Armstrong does point out the job picture is not as negative as protrayed in the media, neither are things as simple as he would lead you to believe. For example, he mentions the shortage of nurses and engineers. Yet this, like many others, are professions that require a certain personality to succeed. I know I could never be a nurse, platitudes about doing anything aside, my personality won't work. Also, simply saying one can go back to college does not address the fact that many people may not be able to. When someone has a spouse, family, and mortgage to support, they don't have the four years it takes to get an engineering or other professional degree. In addition, if someone has been out of school 20 years working, they may not have the prerequisites needed to get back into college -- another two years prep time. While the advice may work for some, far too many people don't have the options that appear so simple to write about, but are very difficult in reality.
Re: Is it realistic?
Employee Relations Specialist AF Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:11 AM
A person can always find a reason not to go back to college. I was the main bread winner in my family of four, but decided that I needed to go to college to help my family. So at the age of 39 I got a Pell Grant and took my very first college class. It took me 10 years, and it wasn't easy. I did homework while at my son's basket ball games. I spent nights in class vs with my family, but in the long run, I got my BS and MS with honors. If you want to bad enough, you will find a way.
Re: Is it realistic?
Analyst DOD Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:38 AM
To the AF engineer, you for got to mention that most retires won't be able to afford the cost of going back to school let alone the time it would take to get to the prerequisite stage.
Re: Is it realistic?
Engineer FAA Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:16 PM
To the analyst. The retiree shouldn't need to go back to school. If they need to income, then don't retire. I thought this thread was about displaced workers, not about people taking retirement.
Re: Is it realistic?
Fed DoD Mon Oct 6, 2008 11:25 AM
Let's not forget:
It's not that there are no qualified American workers. There are no CHEAP, qualified American workers.
Talk to Microsoft's tech workers in Washington state, who recently organized w/Comm Wkrs of America as Washington Alliance of Tech Workers (WashTech).
The hardest thing about working at Microsoft is getting a permanent gig. So most workers come on as temps--in the same boat as temp fed workers: no benefits, no scheduled pay raises, and no rights of appeal. Worst of all, Bill Gates is lobbying to increase the cap of foreign labor into this country: good, qualified workers for next to nothing at Microsoft and everywhere else.
Read about it in the May or Jun issue of The Nation.
Finally...
HR Guy Been Around Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:06 AM
...someone notes the simple fact that the American job market is strong, even in "recession." But a shortage of "government workers"? Where? The real issue is that government manages its human capital poorly, apparently afraid to gain economy and efficiency at the cost of a lowered appropriation. Agencies are aided and abetted by the politicians who continue to believe THEY are the local job creation engine. The facts are that this country wastes human resources, beginning in grade school. We restrict professional school attendance, and require licensure for mundane entry jobs, like child care attendant. Worst, we import millions, as noted in the article, while enabling native millions to wallow in their own dysfunction while the economy offers personal opportunity like never before.
Jobs after retirement
Federally-employed Wage Slave DoD Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:50 AM
"That's a very common model among professionals in our society, whether it's doctors, dentists, CPAs, architects, engineers or public relations professionals. So long as they don't have the professional liability responsibility for plans, which they would have as an architect or an engineer, these valuable professionals in our society can go back and assist on projects. "
That's all very well and good, IF you are a "professional".... I currently have a Federally-designed job I have been doing (and, according to the SSPs and Letters of Appreciation I have received over the years, quite well.) that was designed to fill a professional niche where my DoD agency did not want to hire a "professional". The reason? The "Professional" would have had to be paid at a much higher GS level that I am. What about us? The last time I looked, the greeter position at the Wal-Mart door was filled. Why don't you do a piece on the retirement jobs for "The Rest of Us"?
What about the Federal Community?
Building Management Specialist GSA Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:22 AM
This article, while being a good overview of jobs in general, should be subplanted with a look at what government jobs are facing a shortage of staffing. Since the majority of the readers are Feds, it would certainly be of interest to most.
Illegal Aliens and US Jobs
Immigration Adjudicator INS (now DHS) Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:26 AM
What this piece of Chamber of Commerce fluffery doesn't say is that yes there are plenty of men and women who can take jobs. But the jobs are such as to require skills which the illiterate agriculture worker from Mexico doesn't have. The parallel misconception is that there is no work in Mexico. That's simply not true. There are all kinds of jobs in Mexico that require no skills to speak of. The problem is that they pay next to nothing. So if you're uneducated, semi-literate, and can do only the drudge work, where would you rather be? Laboring for almost nothing in Mexico or laboring for something a bit better in the U.S. Duh!
Funny how all of this boils down to employers (both sides of the border) being unable or unwilling to pay a living salary and then complaining that they can't find bodies to fill the slots.
Jobs
Manager USDA Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:49 AM
When I look at the employment/unemployment "glass", I see it as 96% full employment. Last I knew you either had a job or didn't; I believe it's very rare where someone work 96% or is unemployed at 4%. What this ratio hides is the significant unemployment in areas where high paying industrial jobs are being lost in favor of lower paying service jobs. This ratio avoids the economic loss those areas experience when 1000 $40/hr jobs are replaced by 1000 $10/hr. The loss in taxes, purchasing power, purchased services, etc is glossed over. To my thinking, if you quote employment rates, we should look at economic impact more than just a number or employed.
I also think the plethora of jobs is very localized and the reason may be that no one wants to live there until, forced to by the economy.
RNs, truck drivers, teachers, civil servants
software engineer navair Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:09 AM
These are all jobs that tend to be (mostly) undercompensated and underappreciated, particularly teachers and RNs. I look at the stress and responsibilities of my wife, a teacher, and thank my lucky stars that I didn't choose that profession.
Re: RNs, truck drivers, teachers, civil servants
Retired DoD Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:30 PM
Actually, the teacher's union is one of the reasons America is slipping as an educated country. The liberals want "everyone to be happy", so they lower the standards. The teacher's union wants only to protect teachers and they help ensure the bad ones never go away. Together, those two groups, are ensuring other countries wil continue to soar past us in the area of education.
Re: RNs, truck drivers, teachers, civil servants
HR Guy Been Around Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:48 AM
You haven't looked at RN compensation recently. In many urban areas, depending on specialty, the salary is north of $100k. In any case, there are few RNs anywhere wallowing in unemployment. BTW: Compensation is set by a labor market. Teachers are generally very well compensated for what they do. If you want to whine about "under compensation", its certainly not public school teachers. Compare theirs with private/parochial counterparts.
Hiring Non-Status Cititzens - esp Seniors
Retired AF Civilian USAF Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:50 AM
As a recently retired fed employee, I have been helping a close friend who works in State govt try to secure a Fed job in the administrative area by assisting with the "process" of each agencies instructions. Hope one day OPM will standardize this unnecessary effort. There's Resumix, USAJobs, AvuCentral, Application Manager and dozens more. I digress. This individual is 55 and highly qualified administratively, and never seems to climb to the top of the heap for consideration. Probably due to a lot of returning vets (which is fine), or other stoppers. I tend to believe that many agency HR personnel still turn a blind one eye to older workers, as not worthy to enter federal service. So it will be interesting to see if this massive exodus will truly open up doors for qualified non-status citizens, regardless of age, to enter federal service.
WE NEED IN HOUSE TRAINING
WORKER USMC Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:50 AM
I see a lot of positions and job requirements for positions that require degrees. I have a degree, but I have had COOPs & temps without degrees that can peform these functions/tasks.
I had one COOP that worked with me & she was very smart - her grade was a GS-2-yet she was helping me do engineering work.
I have talked with many managers & supervisors- they say that- to many of the jobs require degrees and the degree is not necessary to perform the functions of the position.
We need to be doing a lot of in house training (true interships), & upward mobility type positions, & training to keep the smart people & get them trained to do the job.
Sending someone to college does not promise that the individuals will know how to do the job when they come to work for the government (all it says is that the individual attended college). I have had a lot of college grads come to work here & I have had to train them to do there simple functions/duties.
Shortage of people
GSA employee GSA Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:40 PM
There are no requirements for college degrees for most federal jobs, but management hires from the outside because they "want" someone with a degree. More importantly, it is so they can avoid letting current staff members advance and backfill the jobs. How sad to work 20+ years and never get past a GS-5/6/7 because of the lack of a degree you can't afford to obtain. Regardless how experienced a person is, no advancement without the degree. GSA has people at the GS-12, 13, and 14 with only 5 or so years of service. If agencies want the experience to stay "in-house" then promote from within since the current staff has the experience and proven ability to perform. There will be opportunities to share the skills and avoid the loss of "knowledge" by teaching the new hires from the entry levels instead of bringing them on board at a GS-9 or GS-11.
Re: Shortage of people
Budget Analyst DOD Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:04 AM
GSA employee that may be the situation where you are, but if you work for the Air Force and are one of the "Good Old Boy/Girls" they can and do move you up the ladder. We have several GS12/13 and even some at the 14 level with no degree. These same people will not advance anyone that is not in the club without a degree, I think it's a way to keep the club clean of undesirables.
BOOMERS WILL CONTINUE WORKING, THEY'LL HAVE TO
N.A. N.A. Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:17 PM
Boomers aren't about to retire, either on time or early. They can't....
ER Specialist, that's basically my point. You needed 10 years of nights & weekends to go back to school. Someone in manufacturing who's faced with "imminent layoff" (per the article) doesn't have the 10 years. They need alternatives they can use now. For example, I grew up in a cotton mill town and got an education through the AF. Many of my friends didn't even graduate high school. And of those who did, many quite frankly aren't college material. The cotton mills moved over seas and they lost the only jobs they, their parents, and grandparents had known. These folks aren't going to become rocket scientists. They need practical advice that can be used by unemployed 55 year old mill workers. College isn't the answer for everyone. The education system needs to understand that -- and that craft workers are every bit as skilled and valuable as engineers. Schools need to have both college track and vocational track courses that need to be available where the people are.
Re: Re Is it realistic
HR Guy Been Around Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:06 AM
Engineer - Your uneducated 55 year old friends aren't interested in ever going back to school to learn anything. The sad fact is they cast their lot 40 years ago when they dropped out and took that perpetually crummy mill job - like daddy - and thought themselves smart. I worked manufacturing myself years ago, it paid for my "your lucky" degree at $4 an hour, and can only look back at all the smart guys who restricted their life horizons by planning to mindlessly stand by a machine for 40 years and grab a "gone fishing" pension. All they wanted from life was a cold beer, pack of smokes, and a weekend dolly. They'll figure out how to keep that happening; always have.
Re: Re Is it realistic
WORKERBEE DOD Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:21 AM
HR guy, I don't know where you have been around, but you need to ratchet it down some about the industrial workers in those "crummy" jobs. I know numerous workers with incredible technical skills that would probably outshine a "smart guy" such as yourself. And, they make quite handsome salaries. Frankly, your comments appalled me. If you are in HR, boy, that's scary.
Re: Re Is it realistic
Nameless, Faceless Nobody DOD Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:20 AM
WOW!!!
I am an intelligent, partly educated but with no degree, administrative type person. My job range will never exceed GS 7, (I am pretty well topped out just now,) and life truly did not work out so that I could finish my college degree.
I made choices. I don't regret leaving an abusive marriage. I don't regret putting my money into medical care that saved my life. I don't regret choosing to remain home at night because otherwise my ex would claim that he was more available to our daughter. I am not whining that I couldn't go back to college.
I may get a chance soon; I do the math every year. However, I will be 50 years old, most of my earlier education was pointed to a field I now know I don't wish to pursue so is useless. 1 class each semester is not going to do it for me.
What I want: RESPECT. Too many people just seem to think that if you don't have a degree you are worthless. Sorry, but just try and live without us.
Re: Re Is it realistic
HR Guy Been Around Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:15 AM
Workerbee - There's a vast difference between a machine operator in a mill and a "technician." You can be appalled...and still that's just the way it is on the factory floor. I've stood at a bank of molding machines mindlessly cranking out stuff in 100 degree-plus heat, perpetual grime and oily air with these people - and drank my beer in a tavern and played pay check poker with them, have you? I've seen guys lose hands in punch press accidents, and others dropped down stairs for rate busting. You may "know" them; I was one. It's a very different life than the idyll you think you know, friend, and a very common one.
Is it realistic
Production Controller DOD Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:40 AM
Quote: Your uneducated 55 year old friends aren't interested in ever going back to school ...
The truth in this line of thinking that was not mentioned is that without the grass roots worker/laborer/mill operators Etc. the economy of our nation would fail. we need and always will need those who want to do this work. All work is honorable, and your lack of appreciation for said workers is elitist and snobbery to say the least.
Re: Is it realistic
GS-12 any Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:31 AM
Quote: Your uneducated 55 year old friends aren't interested in ever going back to school ...
I'm not 55, but I am 50 with less than one year of college. I have been working for 30 years. Started as GS-2. I'm intelligent and worked hard. I was able to advance because the management saw my work habits, work ethic, and intelligence. It took a long time to reach a GS-12, but I got here. There are at least 3 positions that I had in the past that I wouldn't qualify for now because someone decided that a degree is required. These positions all require formal classroom in-house agency-specific training, even for new hires with a degree. I agree with someone else who said that there are many positions that could be filled by smart people without formal education. I can't get another position because of lack of degree even though many people with degrees failed in positions in which I excelled.
Workforce Shortage
Tax Compliance Officer IRS Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:45 AM
I've been reading more and more about the shortage of people to fill critical jobs, such as nurses and teachers, etc. and it makes me VERY angry because I have a brother who taught in a Un. Lab School for about 30 yrs. and returned to school to get his PhD, but now can't find a job because he's 63. They won't even interview him because he would command a higher salary. He has volunteered to accept less money than his experience and education commands and they say they can't do that. Is ther any wonder we have problems in our schools with 25-30 yr old Principals and Supt.? They have no experience with teaching, dealing with children, parents, other experienced teahcers, crisis situaltions, etc. while those who know how to actually teach the children and know how to deal with others are not even given the opportunity to work when that is all they really want to do. When people can operate corps., run for Pres. of the U.S., etc. when they are over 55 it is OK,but one cna't teach scho
Wouldn't it be a possible solution, short term. to bring back experience, retired individuals to fill slots and assist in the training of newly hired individuals. There is a wealth of information that is not being tapped for their experience and know how. Most retired individuals go back to work for various reasons. Why not tap this wealth of information?
A question of emphasis
Former Injury Comp Clerk DoD Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:17 PM
Part of our problem is that we place far too much importance on a liberal arts education. We have only one message to send to the next generations: go to college, go to college, go to college. It doesn't seem to matter what you study while you're there, as long as you get that precious piece of paper that tells us you're Educated. I sometimes wonder what an all-executive workforce would look like. Lots of meetings and jawing, but no one to pick up your trash, hook up your phone or guard you while you sleep.
Given our priorities, it's no wonder that foreign countries that provide separate-but-equal tracks for tech education are wiping the floor with us. Bill Gates and his ilk tell us we need more of these foreigners, but that only makes sense if you consider the free market your country. If we are geniunely interested in helping the U.S. in the long run, let's invest in decent and affordable training right here in the States.
Re: A question of emphasis
Reformed Conservative DFAS Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:29 AM
When I think back on the many half-literate college graduates I've known, I wonder how many of them could pass the old Civil Service test that I passed with a 99.
I'm not opposed to college; my doctor attended college plus medical school, and I'm very glad he did. What I'm opposed to is the prevailing Governmental notion that educating a fool makes him anything besides an educated fool. I think Governmental degree worship is largely more of the mindless imitation of the private sector; in the private sector, it may be a sneaky way to avoid hiring minorities. From what stats I've seen, minorities are less likely to attain degrees than are whites.
Continuing carrer
Correctional Worker Bureau of Prisons Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:30 AM
If you read into your column, you will notice what I do. There may be opportunities out there for a retiree to seek new employment after retirement from the feds IF YOU ARE A PROFFESIONAL with some title. IE CPA, Engineer, etc.
Try applying for a job on USAJOBS without those credentials. You will find that 20 years of outstanding performance means nothing.
The Shortage of People for Jobs
Environmental Protection Specialist EPA Mon May 19, 2008 10:42 AM
The mantra of "not enough workers"rarely mentions that the pay of these trained and skilled workers has not grown and in many cases cut. In the health field, for example, there is a shortage of nurses because the HMOs, hospitals and nursing homes do not pay adequate wages for the hard work and training required from these workers. They are under-paid, over-worked and the schools they need to attend are expensive and the loan debt these workers accrue are very high. Two years ago the U.S. dealt with this "problem" by importing 10,000 Philipino nurses to compete with our American kids by undercutting them by accepting much lower pay. We are doing the same with our engineers, technicians, etc. How about putting some money back into our schools. How putting vocational training back in our high schools? Duh! By the way, the fastest growing job in the U.S. is check-out clerk!
Out of touch
retired U S P S Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:23 AM
An other so called expert telling us about all the great things that professional can find in the job market after they retire. Does Mr.Armstrong realize that most of use retires are not"PROFESSIONALS".Sure you can find all the jobs you want if you are willing to work nights,part-time,weekends or holidays for mabye a buck or two above the minemum.
Unemployment
Dental Hygienist LI Dental Ass. Wed Sep 3, 2008 3:23 AM
Currently there are no jobs to be had in Dental Hygiene here on Long Island. There are way to many Hygienists for the amount of available DH positions. I have two sisters that are DH and both are on unemployment. For every interview they go on the DDS has about 30-30 DHs to pick from. If there are any jobs out there they are 1/day a week or 2/day a week jobs. We live in the Huntington, NY area. Right now DH are treated like Day Laborers. Thanks
Part-time - full time work
Computer Specialist, SR Government Mon Oct 6, 2008 9:19 AM
I will soon retire. I have written OPM to find out how to I find jobs that are available to annuiants. Why is there not an opportunity to have these positions on their web site? They often talk about lack of security IT professionals, etc., but it is impossible to locate what federal agencies have these opportunities. If they are so concerned with baby boomers retiring; then for goodness sake, HIRE THEM BACK!!! Martha
The Shortage of People for Jobs
Logistics US AF civilian Mon Oct 6, 2008 9:46 AM
Good to know. We may need them shortly.
a major cause of our chronic labor shortage
contracting officer AF Tue Oct 7, 2008 10:04 AM
It should be no surprise that we have a labor shortage or that it appears to be intensifying. Having "aborted" roughly forty million babies, many of whom would by now have been in the labor force, over the last several decades, what else could we expect?
Labor Shortage?
retired USPS Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:51 AM
The Postal Service is trying to down size. There are many who could be affected. But the politicians from both parties are hell bent on adding 12 million Mexicans to our Social Security, school systems and health care.
Laws are in effect but not enforced. Everyone looks the other way because the problem keeps getting bigger.
The computer industry has nothing to complain about. Has anyone called for assistance lately? I called Microsoft about a license problem this month and got someone close to Bombay! I could not understand the fool. Microsoft and others find it cheaper to go off coast to hire service companies. All the while, Bill Gates gets richer and richer.
Is it realistic?
AF
Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:10 PM
While Mr Armstrong does point out the job picture is not as negative as protrayed in the media, neither are things as simple as he would lead you to believe. For example, he mentions the shortage of nurses and engineers. Yet this, like many others, are professions that require a certain personality to succeed. I know I could never be a nurse, platitudes about doing anything aside, my personality won't work. Also, simply saying one can go back to college does not address the fact that many people may not be able to. When someone has a spouse, family, and mortgage to support, they don't have the four years it takes to get an engineering or other professional degree. In addition, if someone has been out of school 20 years working, they may not have the prerequisites needed to get back into college -- another two years prep time. While the advice may work for some, far too many people don't have the options that appear so simple to write about, but are very difficult in reality.
Re: Is it realistic?
AF
Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:11 AM
Re: Is it realistic?
DOD
Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:38 AM
Re: Is it realistic?
FAA
Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:16 PM
Re: Is it realistic?
DoD
Mon Oct 6, 2008 11:25 AM
It's not that there are no qualified American workers. There are no CHEAP, qualified American workers.
Talk to Microsoft's tech workers in Washington state, who recently organized w/Comm Wkrs of America as Washington Alliance of Tech Workers (WashTech).
The hardest thing about working at Microsoft is getting a permanent gig. So most workers come on as temps--in the same boat as temp fed workers: no benefits, no scheduled pay raises, and no rights of appeal. Worst of all, Bill Gates is lobbying to increase the cap of foreign labor into this country: good, qualified workers for next to nothing at Microsoft and everywhere else.
Read about it in the May or Jun issue of The Nation.
Finally...
Been Around
Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:06 AM
...someone notes the simple fact that the American job market is strong, even in "recession." But a shortage of "government workers"? Where? The real issue is that government manages its human capital poorly, apparently afraid to gain economy and efficiency at the cost of a lowered appropriation. Agencies are aided and abetted by the politicians who continue to believe THEY are the local job creation engine. The facts are that this country wastes human resources, beginning in grade school. We restrict professional school attendance, and require licensure for mundane entry jobs, like child care attendant. Worst, we import millions, as noted in the article, while enabling native millions to wallow in their own dysfunction while the economy offers personal opportunity like never before.
Jobs after retirement
DoD
Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:50 AM
"That's a very common model among professionals in our society, whether it's doctors, dentists, CPAs, architects, engineers or public relations professionals. So long as they don't have the professional liability responsibility for plans, which they would have as an architect or an engineer, these valuable professionals in our society can go back and assist on projects. "
That's all very well and good, IF you are a "professional".... I currently have a Federally-designed job I have been doing (and, according to the SSPs and Letters of Appreciation I have received over the years, quite well.) that was designed to fill a professional niche where my DoD agency did not want to hire a "professional". The reason? The "Professional" would have had to be paid at a much higher GS level that I am. What about us? The last time I looked, the greeter position at the Wal-Mart door was filled. Why don't you do a piece on the retirement jobs for "The Rest of Us"?
What about the Federal Community?
GSA
Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:22 AM
This article, while being a good overview of jobs in general, should be subplanted with a look at what government jobs are facing a shortage of staffing. Since the majority of the readers are Feds, it would certainly be of interest to most.
Illegal Aliens and US Jobs
INS (now DHS)
Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:26 AM
What this piece of Chamber of Commerce fluffery doesn't say is that yes there are plenty of men and women who can take jobs. But the jobs are such as to require skills which the illiterate agriculture worker from Mexico doesn't have. The parallel misconception is that there is no work in Mexico. That's simply not true. There are all kinds of jobs in Mexico that require no skills to speak of. The problem is that they pay next to nothing. So if you're uneducated, semi-literate, and can do only the drudge work, where would you rather be? Laboring for almost nothing in Mexico or laboring for something a bit better in the U.S. Duh!
Funny how all of this boils down to employers (both sides of the border) being unable or unwilling to pay a living salary and then complaining that they can't find bodies to fill the slots.
Jobs
USDA
Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:49 AM
When I look at the employment/unemployment "glass", I see it as 96% full employment. Last I knew you either had a job or didn't; I believe it's very rare where someone work 96% or is unemployed at 4%. What this ratio hides is the significant unemployment in areas where high paying industrial jobs are being lost in favor of lower paying service jobs. This ratio avoids the economic loss those areas experience when 1000 $40/hr jobs are replaced by 1000 $10/hr. The loss in taxes, purchasing power, purchased services, etc is glossed over. To my thinking, if you quote employment rates, we should look at economic impact more than just a number or employed.
I also think the plethora of jobs is very localized and the reason may be that no one wants to live there until, forced to by the economy.
RNs, truck drivers, teachers, civil servants
navair
Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:09 AM
These are all jobs that tend to be (mostly) undercompensated and underappreciated, particularly teachers and RNs. I look at the stress and responsibilities of my wife, a teacher, and thank my lucky stars that I didn't choose that profession.
Re: RNs, truck drivers, teachers, civil servants
DoD
Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:30 PM
Re: RNs, truck drivers, teachers, civil servants
Been Around
Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:48 AM
Hiring Non-Status Cititzens - esp Seniors
USAF
Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:50 AM
As a recently retired fed employee, I have been helping a close friend who works in State govt try to secure a Fed job in the administrative area by assisting with the "process" of each agencies instructions. Hope one day OPM will standardize this unnecessary effort. There's Resumix, USAJobs, AvuCentral, Application Manager and dozens more. I digress. This individual is 55 and highly qualified administratively, and never seems to climb to the top of the heap for consideration. Probably due to a lot of returning vets (which is fine), or other stoppers. I tend to believe that many agency HR personnel still turn a blind one eye to older workers, as not worthy to enter federal service. So it will be interesting to see if this massive exodus will truly open up doors for qualified non-status citizens, regardless of age, to enter federal service.
WE NEED IN HOUSE TRAINING
USMC
Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:50 AM
I see a lot of positions and job requirements for positions that require degrees. I have a degree, but I have had COOPs & temps without degrees that can peform these functions/tasks.
I had one COOP that worked with me & she was very smart - her grade was a GS-2-yet she was helping me do engineering work.
I have talked with many managers & supervisors- they say that- to many of the jobs require degrees and the degree is not necessary to perform the functions of the position.
We need to be doing a lot of in house training (true interships), & upward mobility type positions, & training to keep the smart people & get them trained to do the job.
Sending someone to college does not promise that the individuals will know how to do the job when they come to work for the government (all it says is that the individual attended college). I have had a lot of college grads come to work here & I have had to train them to do there simple functions/duties.
Shortage of people
GSA
Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:40 PM
There are no requirements for college degrees for most federal jobs, but management hires from the outside because they "want" someone with a degree. More importantly, it is so they can avoid letting current staff members advance and backfill the jobs. How sad to work 20+ years and never get past a GS-5/6/7 because of the lack of a degree you can't afford to obtain. Regardless how experienced a person is, no advancement without the degree. GSA has people at the GS-12, 13, and 14 with only 5 or so years of service. If agencies want the experience to stay "in-house" then promote from within since the current staff has the experience and proven ability to perform. There will be opportunities to share the skills and avoid the loss of "knowledge" by teaching the new hires from the entry levels instead of bringing them on board at a GS-9 or GS-11.
Re: Shortage of people
DOD
Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:04 AM
BOOMERS WILL CONTINUE WORKING, THEY'LL HAVE TO
N.A.
Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:17 PM
Boomers aren't about to retire, either on time or early. They can't....
http://pacificgatepost.blogspot.com/2008/04/baby-boomers-make-no-assumptions.html
The system isn't ready for them.
Re Is it realistic
AF
Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:36 PM
ER Specialist, that's basically my point. You needed 10 years of nights & weekends to go back to school. Someone in manufacturing who's faced with "imminent layoff" (per the article) doesn't have the 10 years. They need alternatives they can use now. For example, I grew up in a cotton mill town and got an education through the AF. Many of my friends didn't even graduate high school. And of those who did, many quite frankly aren't college material. The cotton mills moved over seas and they lost the only jobs they, their parents, and grandparents had known. These folks aren't going to become rocket scientists. They need practical advice that can be used by unemployed 55 year old mill workers. College isn't the answer for everyone. The education system needs to understand that -- and that craft workers are every bit as skilled and valuable as engineers. Schools need to have both college track and vocational track courses that need to be available where the people are.
Re: Re Is it realistic
Been Around
Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:06 AM
Re: Re Is it realistic
DOD
Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:21 AM
Re: Re Is it realistic
DOD
Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:20 AM
I am an intelligent, partly educated but with no degree, administrative type person. My job range will never exceed GS 7, (I am pretty well topped out just now,) and life truly did not work out so that I could finish my college degree.
I made choices. I don't regret leaving an abusive marriage. I don't regret putting my money into medical care that saved my life. I don't regret choosing to remain home at night because otherwise my ex would claim that he was more available to our daughter. I am not whining that I couldn't go back to college.
I may get a chance soon; I do the math every year. However, I will be 50 years old, most of my earlier education was pointed to a field I now know I don't wish to pursue so is useless. 1 class each semester is not going to do it for me.
What I want: RESPECT. Too many people just seem to think that if you don't have a degree you are worthless. Sorry, but just try and live without us.
Re: Re Is it realistic
Been Around
Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:15 AM
Is it realistic
DOD
Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:40 AM
Quote: Your uneducated 55 year old friends aren't interested in ever going back to school ...
The truth in this line of thinking that was not mentioned is that without the grass roots worker/laborer/mill operators Etc. the economy of our nation would fail. we need and always will need those who want to do this work. All work is honorable, and your lack of appreciation for said workers is elitist and snobbery to say the least.
Re: Is it realistic
any
Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:31 AM
I'm not 55, but I am 50 with less than one year of college. I have been working for 30 years. Started as GS-2. I'm intelligent and worked hard. I was able to advance because the management saw my work habits, work ethic, and intelligence. It took a long time to reach a GS-12, but I got here. There are at least 3 positions that I had in the past that I wouldn't qualify for now because someone decided that a degree is required. These positions all require formal classroom in-house agency-specific training, even for new hires with a degree. I agree with someone else who said that there are many positions that could be filled by smart people without formal education. I can't get another position because of lack of degree even though many people with degrees failed in positions in which I excelled.
Workforce Shortage
IRS
Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:45 AM
I've been reading more and more about the shortage of people to fill critical jobs, such as nurses and teachers, etc. and it makes me VERY angry because I have a brother who taught in a Un. Lab School for about 30 yrs. and returned to school to get his PhD, but now can't find a job because he's 63. They won't even interview him because he would command a higher salary. He has volunteered to accept less money than his experience and education commands and they say they can't do that. Is ther any wonder we have problems in our schools with 25-30 yr old Principals and Supt.? They have no experience with teaching, dealing with children, parents, other experienced teahcers, crisis situaltions, etc. while those who know how to actually teach the children and know how to deal with others are not even given the opportunity to work when that is all they really want to do. When people can operate corps., run for Pres. of the U.S., etc. when they are over 55 it is OK,but one cna't teach scho
Source of experience
DOD
Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:26 PM
Wouldn't it be a possible solution, short term. to bring back experience, retired individuals to fill slots and assist in the training of newly hired individuals. There is a wealth of information that is not being tapped for their experience and know how. Most retired individuals go back to work for various reasons. Why not tap this wealth of information?
A question of emphasis
DoD
Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:17 PM
Part of our problem is that we place far too much importance on a liberal arts education. We have only one message to send to the next generations: go to college, go to college, go to college. It doesn't seem to matter what you study while you're there, as long as you get that precious piece of paper that tells us you're Educated. I sometimes wonder what an all-executive workforce would look like. Lots of meetings and jawing, but no one to pick up your trash, hook up your phone or guard you while you sleep.
Given our priorities, it's no wonder that foreign countries that provide separate-but-equal tracks for tech education are wiping the floor with us. Bill Gates and his ilk tell us we need more of these foreigners, but that only makes sense if you consider the free market your country. If we are geniunely interested in helping the U.S. in the long run, let's invest in decent and affordable training right here in the States.
Re: A question of emphasis
DFAS
Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:29 AM
I'm not opposed to college; my doctor attended college plus medical school, and I'm very glad he did. What I'm opposed to is the prevailing Governmental notion that educating a fool makes him anything besides an educated fool. I think Governmental degree worship is largely more of the mindless imitation of the private sector; in the private sector, it may be a sneaky way to avoid hiring minorities. From what stats I've seen, minorities are less likely to attain degrees than are whites.
Continuing carrer
Bureau of Prisons
Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:30 AM
If you read into your column, you will notice what I do. There may be opportunities out there for a retiree to seek new employment after retirement from the feds IF YOU ARE A PROFFESIONAL with some title. IE CPA, Engineer, etc.
Try applying for a job on USAJOBS without those credentials. You will find that 20 years of outstanding performance means nothing.
The Shortage of People for Jobs
EPA
Mon May 19, 2008 10:42 AM
The mantra of "not enough workers"rarely mentions that the pay of these trained and skilled workers has not grown and in many cases cut. In the health field, for example, there is a shortage of nurses because the HMOs, hospitals and nursing homes do not pay adequate wages for the hard work and training required from these workers. They are under-paid, over-worked and the schools they need to attend are expensive and the loan debt these workers accrue are very high. Two years ago the U.S. dealt with this "problem" by importing 10,000 Philipino nurses to compete with our American kids by undercutting them by accepting much lower pay. We are doing the same with our engineers, technicians, etc. How about putting some money back into our schools. How putting vocational training back in our high schools? Duh! By the way, the fastest growing job in the U.S. is check-out clerk!
Out of touch
U S P S
Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:23 AM
An other so called expert telling us about all the great things that professional can find in the job market after they retire. Does Mr.Armstrong realize that most of use retires are not"PROFESSIONALS".Sure you can find all the jobs you want if you are willing to work nights,part-time,weekends or holidays for mabye a buck or two above the minemum.
Unemployment
LI Dental Ass.
Wed Sep 3, 2008 3:23 AM
Currently there are no jobs to be had in Dental Hygiene here on Long Island. There are way to many Hygienists for the amount of available DH positions. I have two sisters that are DH and both are on unemployment. For every interview they go on the DDS has about 30-30 DHs to pick from. If there are any jobs out there they are 1/day a week or 2/day a week jobs. We live in the Huntington, NY area. Right now DH are treated like Day Laborers. Thanks
Part-time - full time work
Government
Mon Oct 6, 2008 9:19 AM
I will soon retire. I have written OPM to find out how to I find jobs that are available to annuiants. Why is there not an opportunity to have these positions on their web site? They often talk about lack of security IT professionals, etc., but it is impossible to locate what federal agencies have these opportunities. If they are so concerned with baby boomers retiring; then for goodness sake, HIRE THEM BACK!!! Martha
The Shortage of People for Jobs
US AF civilian
Mon Oct 6, 2008 9:46 AM
Good to know. We may need them shortly.
a major cause of our chronic labor shortage
AF
Tue Oct 7, 2008 10:04 AM
It should be no surprise that we have a labor shortage or that it appears to be intensifying. Having "aborted" roughly forty million babies, many of whom would by now have been in the labor force, over the last several decades, what else could we expect?
Labor Shortage?
USPS
Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:51 AM
The Postal Service is trying to down size. There are many who could be affected. But the politicians from both parties are hell bent on adding 12 million Mexicans to our Social Security, school systems and health care.
Laws are in effect but not enforced. Everyone looks the other way because the problem keeps getting bigger.
The computer industry has nothing to complain about. Has anyone called for assistance lately? I called Microsoft about a license problem this month and got someone close to Bombay! I could not understand the fool. Microsoft and others find it cheaper to go off coast to hire service companies. All the while, Bill Gates gets richer and richer.