I say that we go after the frequent traders who have abused the system and recover the costs which the normal investors have lthus borne and lost. If the frequent traders want to trade frequently have the TSP Board set up a special program for them separate from the normal TSP funds and let them sign up to be self supporting. Then lets see how well they do.
TSP TRADING
Engineer FAA Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:26 AM
If the TSP board is so concerned about frequent traders, why did they create the L funds which must continually be balanced to keep the fund percentages as specified. It seems that the TSP boards own practices are causing a lot of unnecessary costs to everyone that does not choose to invest in the L funds. The board is trying to force TSP investors into the L funds to make them look successfull.
Everyone in FERS has been told how FERS is supposed to be superior to the old CSR system, and it probably would have been for those investing in TSP had the stock market maintained any type of stability over the last 10 years. But the truth is the market perfomed very poorly over the last 10 years and many employees lost much of their TSP balances between 2000 and 2002. For some employees, their TSP balances are just now recovering from the losses of the early 2000s. Now, the TSP board wants to limit TSP investores the ability to make gains before they retire.
Shame on the TSP board!
Re: TSP TRADING
Program Analyst GSA Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:20 AM
From the Federal Register notice: "in the I Fund, for September and October 2007, the average daily dollar amount attributable to the L Funds' rebalancing accounted for just 7 percent of the total daily trade,
while the average daily dollar amount attributable to those making frequent IFTs (defined in this instance as participants who made IFTs into or out of the I Fund eight or more times in the prior 60 days) was
63 percent." The frequent IFT cost was *nine times* that of the L rebalancing for the September October period.
Re: TSP TRADING
DoD Budget Analyst NAVY Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:14 PM
FAA Engineer,
Your comment was as follows:
"If the TSP board is so concerned about frequent traders, why did they create the L funds which must continually be balanced to keep the fund percentages as specified."
Well I can tell you that it was created for people that don't want to spend the time evaluating the market for one and readjusting their allocations as they get older. There is a fair amt of TSP participants that don't want to get into the details of investing and would prefer a simple formula based on where you are in your career..etc. That is the purpose of the L funds. They will perform better than the C fund over time. What I mean by that is picking a 2030 or 2040 if you are a younger employee...because we are in a global economy where companies outside the US are growing much faster than here in the US and other economies around the world are outperforming the US. If you think about it over the last 10 yrs the C fund has only made like 5% or so - its horrible
Frequent Trading
Investigator A DOL Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:32 AM
Those extraordinarily astute individuals who are able to repeatedly successfully time the market are still free to exercise these abilities with other investment vehicles (and there are many) outside of the TSP and I wish them luck. However, I wish to continue my plodding, but statistically much more likely of success, route to a financially independent retirement. The key to my plan, and apparently the plan of a vast majority of TSP shareholers, is to buy and hold low-cost funds of which the TSP is the best. Anything, like frequent trading or G fund payday trading, that interferes with this plan is antithetical to sound investment practices and is rightfully curtailed by the fund managers.
Frequent traders
QA Specialist DOD Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:38 AM
If these people who think they are superior to the TSP people running our 401K funds than let them move their money out and trade it the way they want. It will not affect the rest of us and if they are as good as they think they are than they will do well. But I can almost say without a doubt that they will not do as well. Just look at how many so called professionals don't make it.
If they are that good than they're in the wrong business and should be on Wall St.
TSP Administrators do right thing
Area Director Rural Development Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:06 AM
I support and commend the actions of the TSP. I thank you for protecting my assests to the greatest extent possible.
Piggies
TSP Investor Federal Government Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:32 AM
It's not surprising that the kinds of piggies who sought to enrich themselves in the TSP at the expense of their fellow TSP participants are squealing and name calling now that the Board has pulled their snouts out of the trough. Once a piggie, always a piggie.
Re: Piggies
Thorn in the Side DOD Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:33 PM
Oink! You've summed it up just perfectly!
Re: Piggies
General Engineer Federal Govt Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:53 PM
Its hard to believe how gullible some people are. I blew these childish, unprofitable articles off months ago & continue to work on achieving my goal of 50% gains per year in my TSP account - not counting contributions. I don't think I will miss by more than 5 to 10% this year at the most.
The new trading rule didn't affect me at all. One trade per month is all I've ever needed to beat the market by a factor of 3X the C fund gains.
Here in the US, hard work still pays off like it should; in spite of the uncleanness of the wicked, the sluggard, the fool, and the scorner.
Read Prov. 1:1 through Prov. 31:31 for details about how to become wise.
Read Matt. 25:14 - 30 to see what a difference it makes.
Lastly, ignore articles that only distort the facts, confuse you, and scorn wise men/women. It's a horrible waste of your time. Do something profitable!
Re: Piggies
Nameless, Faceless Nobody DOD Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:51 AM
General Engineer...
One key point is that you were able to meet your goals with ONE trade per MONTH. People moving money in and out of funds several times a week or even daily were screwing up the numbers for everyone else. You are anecdotal evidence for the arguements for trade limits not affecting ability to balance investments.
Re: Piggies
General Engineer Federal Govt Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:00 PM
Nameless Nobody
Thank you for your comment. I've read all sorts of silly, distorted comments on this web-site. Personally, I do not believe in directing personal anger toward innocent people. If one remains in an investment vehicle which is depreciating in value, then they are 100% responsible for their financial losses - pure and simple. I might also think that they are oafs, but I would certainly keep that thought to myself. Jealousy is a vice; a personal character flaw. It is not something that should be condoned - let alone encouraged. I'm not sure what else should be said. Wisdom and instruction posted on this web-site is despised.
Trying to beat the market
Admin Asst Forest Service Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:37 AM
It's understandable that investors would be looking for ways to improve their returns. Especially with the market taking a beating the way it has the last few months. However, if their frequent trading is costing me money, I would call their actions thoughtless and selfish. If these individuals want to play the market in an attempt to increase their earnings. let them play on E-trade or one of the other vehicles that are available. Let them pay for their own trades.
Wheeling and Dealing
Thorn in the Side DOD Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:41 AM
The TSP is for those who are serious about retiring. It was never intended to be a get-rich-quick scheme. Those who want to play Wall St. Roulette should have the chance to do so, but this is not the place for it; they should leave TSP and open an account somewhere like E-Trade. Recent history shows us many examples of would-be big cheeses - day-traders, middle-class people trying to be real estate tycoons - who have ended up as cheese crumbs. Investing is a form of gambling, but it is one in which risks can and should be minimized as much as possible. I try to behave sensibly in regard to my retirement, and am unwilling to eat out of trahscans in my old age so that someone else can pretend to be a Las Vegas highroller.
No Comments
Labor Employee Relations Manager VA Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:47 AM
I am surprised that there are no comments from those frequent traders that are costing ME money!
Re: No Comments
Engineer Dept. of Energy Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:42 PM
It is also unfortunate that there are so many comments that are very inflammatory and negative towards the "traders". While I am not a frequent trader, I have made moves in and out of the market over the years and 2 per month will suit me fine. However, all these frequent traders were doing was trading as allowed by the TSP (one trade per day maximum) which was heavily touted when the new system was introduced a few years back. I doubt any of them were trying to trade their accounts in order to screw over fellow government workers by increasing fund costs.
So everyone just relax and back off with all of the negativity! Both sides!
Re: No Comments
Supervisor DHS Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:26 PM
"It is also unfortunate that there are so many comments that are very inflammatory and negative towards the "traders". "
One possible reason for this is that there have been a ton of inflammatory and negative comments BY frequent traders who call anybody who doesn't trade frequently a fool and other uncomplimentary things. If they insult perfect strangers they shouldn't be surprise when their insults are challenged.
Thank Goodness!
Geologist EPA Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:43 AM
Hot Damn!......Great Day in the Morning!! The TSP Board has just saved me $3.97 for 2008. I think I will run out and place a deposit on a gallon of gasoline.
At What Cost?
Gils Son Treasury Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:57 AM
I invest in TSP for it's stated mission. I want a pooled investment that attempts to protect my investments at all costs. The day traders, as smart as they think they are, only have their own interests and could care less about me and my investments. Please do not tell me I can do the same because if I did want the same as you I would respect the other investors and transfer my funds to an appropriate investment platform. In closing, I knew someone who used his TSP account in this day trading fashion. As I understand it his widow is doing quite nicely. He dropped dead at the age of 54 after a big one day drop of a heart attack.
TSP
HR DoD Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:16 PM
This is exactly what I've been saying all along. TSP is a retirement program, not an investment company. I don't know why the "day traders" couldn't understand that. And don't respond that the TSP money is yours to do what you want. That is not a true statement, especially when your actions were affecting MY money.
The Board & Its Cherry Picked Data Are Wrong
Tina Leg. Branch Agency Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:36 PM
I am strongly opposed to the restrictions, but I did not bother to submit a comment since it was clear that it was an empty exercise and that the Board had already determined what it was going to do. They issued a report with cherry picked data chosen to support the decision they previously made. It is the Board that misappropriates the language of the markets with foolish terms like day trading & market timing to describe an investment where you can only transfer funds five times per week.
Those traders who have the market timed and are making superior gains need to establish day trader accounts with brokerage firms that specialize in that activity. They are doing so much better than TSP fund and shouldn't settle for the paltry returns of an investment tool designed to satisfy the needs of those who aren't so market savvy. They need to play with the big boys and get out of the sand box, put their money where their talent is, TSP was not designed for that kind of aggressive investor.
Re: frequent traders
Engineer DOT Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:05 AM
The truth is that many people would be happy to trade outside of TSP, but the fact is their money is trapped in TSP. If they could roll their money over into an IRA with many more investment options, then they would. To say that these people are doing so much better than the TSP find is inaccrurate, they ARE IN TSP and are doing well (until the new regulations are enforced).
Everyone that wants no risk should put all their money in the G fund and let those wishing for bigger gains invest (as often as they want) in the stock funds (C and I). Anyone putting their money in the C and I fund is risking their retirement so they souldn't be concerned about those who get in and out frequently.
I think many TSP investors have the old crab mentality, too many are jealous of someone else's success. If a TSP investor is successfull, then all the nonsuccessfull crabs want to pull them back into the stagnant bucket.
Re: frequent traders
Nameless, Faceless Nobody DOD Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:22 AM
To the DOT Engineer:
Their money is not trapped. They are welcome to reduce their contributions to TSP and use that money however they wish.
I am not jealous of the frequent trader's "success". If everyone did what they did then the entire system would crash. That alone would indicate that the frequent traders were skimming off the rest of the investors---NOT the investment markets.
I believe the board has responded for the better of all participants rather than the few.
Great article
Comp. Sci. NIH Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:56 PM
Thanks Ralph! I hadn't even considered the fact that swapping in and out of the G fund really is taking advantage of a rounding issue. Of course the G fund really goes up about a sixteenth of a cent per day. By switching in and out, frequent traders were certainly diluting the overall passive holdings in the G fund. Interesting that tsptalk.com made it into the Federal Register!
Why does it cost the TSP 16 million Dollars to trade 1000 accounts is my question. When I trade $11.000 it cost me $7.00 and my broker makes a profit. Based on that ratio it should cost the TSP $7,000 not $16,000,000. There appears to be some government inefficiency and incompetence, as usual. Maybe the TSP should be turned over to a contractor to manage. It seems a profit motive may make the TSP more efficient. When I retired 6 months I rolled my tsp into an IRA with thousands of options and no limits on trades. I am up 4% and the S&P is down 4%. Se la vie
Robert Meyers, Retired
Monthly monitoring
Forester USFS Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:53 PM
When do these regulations go into effect?
What website can an average TSP participant go to, that will show the average daily and monthly costs for each fund for the past year?
The debate on whether these these "market timers" were truely effecting the cost of management of the International fund can go on forever but it should be easy to see in the months ahead if it is true or not or whether this is a needless restriction imposed by the TSP board.
With these new regulations we should immediately see a big reduction in costs for the buying and selling of shares between funds. If the costs were not caused by these market timers, then we should not see much change in the costs. That is the simple part.
The question is how or where do we go to find out this information or is this a "Trust Me" situation of the TSP.
Capturing Profits
District Adjudication Officer Homeland Security Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:22 AM
I understand what the market timers are doing. My biggest beef with "playing the market" is that there is no way to "capture" the profits when the market rises. The market goes up and up, but beware, then it goes down. These market timers are attempting to "cash out" when the market is up and capture the profits. I understand what they are doing, and can appreciate it as I would like to do it, but it is too time consuming and you never know when the market has topped out. I read a book about it, but it is too much work. Maybe someone can explain to me why "buying and holding" as the majority of us do is better - it is confusing. I enjoyed the remark above about them being "piggies" funny, but true. And isn't it funny, how these timers, are so angry when they write in to defend themselves? I wish these Federal employees would give me my tax money's worth and get to work. My goodness gracious.
Happy Weekend ya'all!
APPLAUD and APPROVE
MSA VA Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:39 AM
I both applaud and approve of the decisions reached by the managers of the TSP to limit interfund transfers. Let the deviated rectums (the politically correct way to describe someone as an asshole) who consider themselves superior "traders" pull their funds out of TSP and invest them in the market by way of opening accounts at any of the number of trading organizations who advertise low per trade transaction fees. Richard A. Babcock, MBA.
TSP trading limits
FLM FAA Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:47 AM
The only thing I found harsh about the comments was the TSP's inability to answer why they will not let members manage their own money. If they have a cost for the trade pass it along to the trader. Who ever heard of a broker that refuses to do what the customer asks?? Just another Boston Tea Party, and that is not harsh but rather the simple, unabashed truth.
$16 Million Is Not a Low Number
Engineer DOD Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:30 AM
Smith is nothing but a shill for the TSP board, who are in the pockets of Barclays.
Name withheld due to past retaliation by TSP ED
Diversity and Confusion
engineer Air Force Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:53 AM
I've tried to make the most of the rules for my future and my children. I have made money by switching funds often in the past, but right now I'm on the sidelines in G fund.
It was annoying at first, now it is just sad. So many people with more attitude than facts on such a serious and important subject.
Everyday the L Fund takes money out of the funds that did well and puts it in the funds that did worse, and calls it rebalancing. If that doesn't seem odd to you, then you should leave interfund transfers alone.
As for the costs of the frequent traders. Something is not right with the numbers. According to the information I found on the FRTIB website, the year they claim the 3,000 drove the price up, the reported price of trading dropped.
TSP is a great step forward in retirement planning. I wish they would finish the trip and truly enable the capable to actively build their retirement.
Bravo TSP Board!
Staff Officer Forest Service Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:12 PM
How refreshing that the TSP Board had the guts to stand up to a very vocal minority trying to subterfuge the system on the backs of the majority! If more area of government would stand up like this, we would all be better off. Thank you!
When the bottom falls out
Thorn in the Side DOD Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:29 AM
One reason wheeler-dealers don't want to go to an appropriate vehicle for their gambling is that they would lose the matching funds - funds that are not "theirs" on receipt.
One poster referred to TSP as a "broker", but as another correctly pointed out, TSP is NOT a brokerage account, nor is it intended to be. People need to keep this distinction in mind. I do not believe that the costs of frequent trades can be completely passed on to the ones causing the expense. The confusion and extra workload generated would simply be too great. Furthermore, it would lead to TSP becoming a brokerage-type account, which is VERY undesirable for the rest of us.
Last but not least, what would happen when the bottom dropped out, which it will? Cue the mewling: "The Board didn't do its job, . . . .", and watch how fast the hands come out. I can see that one coming a mile away!
Does anyone check???
Dirt Worker USDA Thu May 1, 2008 10:24 AM
Does anyone have the ability to verify the numbers the TSP Board claim? Hint to Ralph Smith: if you really want to be considered a diligent, thorough reporter, why not perform an investigative analysis and verify the information you presently copy/past things from the TSP Board and Federal Register.
You Do The Math !
Geologist EPA Tue May 20, 2008 9:06 AM
We need to stop criticiziing those of us that used the system in the way it was intended to be used. Besides, if you look at the math you too will see that - even though $15 M is a lot of money when searching through one's own pockets - $15 M is not even a drop in the ocean when compared to the total value of the TSP ($216 B) Fund.
$15,000,000 / $216,000,000,000 = .00007% or seven one-hundred thousanths of a penny ! !
Re: You Do The Math !
Mgr DOAA Fri Jun 6, 2008 5:04 PM
Keep in mind that those who trade frequently are NOT using the system as it's intended to be used.
Beating the Market
Fed Worker DOD Wed May 28, 2008 6:30 AM
The typical Federal worker is not going to beat the Market in the long run, and if they feel confident that they can perhaps they are in the wrong career. It is smarter to make an occasional trade based on trends, and the TSP is still allowing this.
C Fund Losses Today
General Engineer Federal Govt Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:02 PM
I think it was stated that B&H participants were losing about $16 per year as a result of some participants managing their TSP allocations. Today was a perfect example of why some of us choose to wisely manage our resources.
Approximately $29.37 was lost for each $1000 invested today in the C Fund today. That is almost 2 years worth of losses suffered by B&H folks resulting from the trading expenses of those who managed their TSP accounts - in 1 day.
Those that had $100,000 in the C Fund lost approximately $2,937 today; or 184 years worth of losses caused by your comrades who manage their TSP funds.
Those who had $1,000,000 suffered a loss of approximately $29,370 today. That is the equivalent of approximately 1,836 years of losses caused by your fellow employees who manage their TSP accounts.
$$$ of Freqent Trades
USAF
Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:18 AM
I say that we go after the frequent traders who have abused the system and recover the costs which the normal investors have lthus borne and lost. If the frequent traders want to trade frequently have the TSP Board set up a special program for them separate from the normal TSP funds and let them sign up to be self supporting. Then lets see how well they do.
TSP TRADING
FAA
Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:26 AM
If the TSP board is so concerned about frequent traders, why did they create the L funds which must continually be balanced to keep the fund percentages as specified. It seems that the TSP boards own practices are causing a lot of unnecessary costs to everyone that does not choose to invest in the L funds. The board is trying to force TSP investors into the L funds to make them look successfull.
Everyone in FERS has been told how FERS is supposed to be superior to the old CSR system, and it probably would have been for those investing in TSP had the stock market maintained any type of stability over the last 10 years. But the truth is the market perfomed very poorly over the last 10 years and many employees lost much of their TSP balances between 2000 and 2002. For some employees, their TSP balances are just now recovering from the losses of the early 2000s. Now, the TSP board wants to limit TSP investores the ability to make gains before they retire.
Shame on the TSP board!
Re: TSP TRADING
GSA
Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:20 AM
while the average daily dollar amount attributable to those making frequent IFTs (defined in this instance as participants who made IFTs into or out of the I Fund eight or more times in the prior 60 days) was
63 percent." The frequent IFT cost was *nine times* that of the L rebalancing for the September October period.
Re: TSP TRADING
NAVY
Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:14 PM
Your comment was as follows:
"If the TSP board is so concerned about frequent traders, why did they create the L funds which must continually be balanced to keep the fund percentages as specified."
Well I can tell you that it was created for people that don't want to spend the time evaluating the market for one and readjusting their allocations as they get older. There is a fair amt of TSP participants that don't want to get into the details of investing and would prefer a simple formula based on where you are in your career..etc. That is the purpose of the L funds. They will perform better than the C fund over time. What I mean by that is picking a 2030 or 2040 if you are a younger employee...because we are in a global economy where companies outside the US are growing much faster than here in the US and other economies around the world are outperforming the US. If you think about it over the last 10 yrs the C fund has only made like 5% or so - its horrible
Frequent Trading
DOL
Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:32 AM
Those extraordinarily astute individuals who are able to repeatedly successfully time the market are still free to exercise these abilities with other investment vehicles (and there are many) outside of the TSP and I wish them luck. However, I wish to continue my plodding, but statistically much more likely of success, route to a financially independent retirement. The key to my plan, and apparently the plan of a vast majority of TSP shareholers, is to buy and hold low-cost funds of which the TSP is the best. Anything, like frequent trading or G fund payday trading, that interferes with this plan is antithetical to sound investment practices and is rightfully curtailed by the fund managers.
Frequent traders
DOD
Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:38 AM
If these people who think they are superior to the TSP people running our 401K funds than let them move their money out and trade it the way they want. It will not affect the rest of us and if they are as good as they think they are than they will do well. But I can almost say without a doubt that they will not do as well. Just look at how many so called professionals don't make it.
If they are that good than they're in the wrong business and should be on Wall St.
TSP Administrators do right thing
Rural Development
Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:06 AM
I support and commend the actions of the TSP. I thank you for protecting my assests to the greatest extent possible.
Piggies
Federal Government
Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:32 AM
It's not surprising that the kinds of piggies who sought to enrich themselves in the TSP at the expense of their fellow TSP participants are squealing and name calling now that the Board has pulled their snouts out of the trough. Once a piggie, always a piggie.
Re: Piggies
DOD
Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:33 PM
Re: Piggies
Federal Govt
Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:53 PM
The new trading rule didn't affect me at all. One trade per month is all I've ever needed to beat the market by a factor of 3X the C fund gains.
Here in the US, hard work still pays off like it should; in spite of the uncleanness of the wicked, the sluggard, the fool, and the scorner.
Read Prov. 1:1 through Prov. 31:31 for details about how to become wise.
Read Matt. 25:14 - 30 to see what a difference it makes.
Lastly, ignore articles that only distort the facts, confuse you, and scorn wise men/women. It's a horrible waste of your time. Do something profitable!
Re: Piggies
DOD
Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:51 AM
One key point is that you were able to meet your goals with ONE trade per MONTH. People moving money in and out of funds several times a week or even daily were screwing up the numbers for everyone else. You are anecdotal evidence for the arguements for trade limits not affecting ability to balance investments.
Re: Piggies
Federal Govt
Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:00 PM
Thank you for your comment. I've read all sorts of silly, distorted comments on this web-site. Personally, I do not believe in directing personal anger toward innocent people. If one remains in an investment vehicle which is depreciating in value, then they are 100% responsible for their financial losses - pure and simple. I might also think that they are oafs, but I would certainly keep that thought to myself. Jealousy is a vice; a personal character flaw. It is not something that should be condoned - let alone encouraged. I'm not sure what else should be said. Wisdom and instruction posted on this web-site is despised.
Trying to beat the market
Forest Service
Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:37 AM
It's understandable that investors would be looking for ways to improve their returns. Especially with the market taking a beating the way it has the last few months. However, if their frequent trading is costing me money, I would call their actions thoughtless and selfish. If these individuals want to play the market in an attempt to increase their earnings. let them play on E-trade or one of the other vehicles that are available. Let them pay for their own trades.
Wheeling and Dealing
DOD
Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:41 AM
The TSP is for those who are serious about retiring. It was never intended to be a get-rich-quick scheme. Those who want to play Wall St. Roulette should have the chance to do so, but this is not the place for it; they should leave TSP and open an account somewhere like E-Trade. Recent history shows us many examples of would-be big cheeses - day-traders, middle-class people trying to be real estate tycoons - who have ended up as cheese crumbs. Investing is a form of gambling, but it is one in which risks can and should be minimized as much as possible. I try to behave sensibly in regard to my retirement, and am unwilling to eat out of trahscans in my old age so that someone else can pretend to be a Las Vegas highroller.
No Comments
VA
Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:47 AM
I am surprised that there are no comments from those frequent traders that are costing ME money!
Re: No Comments
Dept. of Energy
Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:42 PM
So everyone just relax and back off with all of the negativity! Both sides!
Re: No Comments
DHS
Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:26 PM
One possible reason for this is that there have been a ton of inflammatory and negative comments BY frequent traders who call anybody who doesn't trade frequently a fool and other uncomplimentary things. If they insult perfect strangers they shouldn't be surprise when their insults are challenged.
Thank Goodness!
EPA
Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:43 AM
Hot Damn!......Great Day in the Morning!! The TSP Board has just saved me $3.97 for 2008. I think I will run out and place a deposit on a gallon of gasoline.
At What Cost?
Treasury
Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:57 AM
I invest in TSP for it's stated mission. I want a pooled investment that attempts to protect my investments at all costs. The day traders, as smart as they think they are, only have their own interests and could care less about me and my investments. Please do not tell me I can do the same because if I did want the same as you I would respect the other investors and transfer my funds to an appropriate investment platform. In closing, I knew someone who used his TSP account in this day trading fashion. As I understand it his widow is doing quite nicely. He dropped dead at the age of 54 after a big one day drop of a heart attack.
TSP
DoD
Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:16 PM
This is exactly what I've been saying all along. TSP is a retirement program, not an investment company. I don't know why the "day traders" couldn't understand that. And don't respond that the TSP money is yours to do what you want. That is not a true statement, especially when your actions were affecting MY money.
The Board & Its Cherry Picked Data Are Wrong
Leg. Branch Agency
Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:36 PM
I am strongly opposed to the restrictions, but I did not bother to submit a comment since it was clear that it was an empty exercise and that the Board had already determined what it was going to do. They issued a report with cherry picked data chosen to support the decision they previously made. It is the Board that misappropriates the language of the markets with foolish terms like day trading & market timing to describe an investment where you can only transfer funds five times per week.
frequent traders
cbp
Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:53 PM
Those traders who have the market timed and are making superior gains need to establish day trader accounts with brokerage firms that specialize in that activity. They are doing so much better than TSP fund and shouldn't settle for the paltry returns of an investment tool designed to satisfy the needs of those who aren't so market savvy. They need to play with the big boys and get out of the sand box, put their money where their talent is, TSP was not designed for that kind of aggressive investor.
Re: frequent traders
DOT
Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:05 AM
Everyone that wants no risk should put all their money in the G fund and let those wishing for bigger gains invest (as often as they want) in the stock funds (C and I). Anyone putting their money in the C and I fund is risking their retirement so they souldn't be concerned about those who get in and out frequently.
I think many TSP investors have the old crab mentality, too many are jealous of someone else's success. If a TSP investor is successfull, then all the nonsuccessfull crabs want to pull them back into the stagnant bucket.
Re: frequent traders
DOD
Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:22 AM
Their money is not trapped. They are welcome to reduce their contributions to TSP and use that money however they wish.
I am not jealous of the frequent trader's "success". If everyone did what they did then the entire system would crash. That alone would indicate that the frequent traders were skimming off the rest of the investors---NOT the investment markets.
I believe the board has responded for the better of all participants rather than the few.
Great article
NIH
Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:56 PM
Thanks Ralph! I hadn't even considered the fact that swapping in and out of the G fund really is taking advantage of a rounding issue. Of course the G fund really goes up about a sixteenth of a cent per day. By switching in and out, frequent traders were certainly diluting the overall passive holdings in the G fund. Interesting that tsptalk.com made it into the Federal Register!
TSP Trading 416,000,000 etc..
DOE
Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:42 PM
Why does it cost the TSP 16 million Dollars to trade 1000 accounts is my question. When I trade $11.000 it cost me $7.00 and my broker makes a profit. Based on that ratio it should cost the TSP $7,000 not $16,000,000. There appears to be some government inefficiency and incompetence, as usual. Maybe the TSP should be turned over to a contractor to manage. It seems a profit motive may make the TSP more efficient. When I retired 6 months I rolled my tsp into an IRA with thousands of options and no limits on trades. I am up 4% and the S&P is down 4%. Se la vie
Robert Meyers, Retired
Monthly monitoring
USFS
Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:53 PM
When do these regulations go into effect?
What website can an average TSP participant go to, that will show the average daily and monthly costs for each fund for the past year?
The debate on whether these these "market timers" were truely effecting the cost of management of the International fund can go on forever but it should be easy to see in the months ahead if it is true or not or whether this is a needless restriction imposed by the TSP board.
With these new regulations we should immediately see a big reduction in costs for the buying and selling of shares between funds. If the costs were not caused by these market timers, then we should not see much change in the costs. That is the simple part.
The question is how or where do we go to find out this information or is this a "Trust Me" situation of the TSP.
Capturing Profits
Homeland Security
Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:22 AM
I understand what the market timers are doing. My biggest beef with "playing the market" is that there is no way to "capture" the profits when the market rises. The market goes up and up, but beware, then it goes down. These market timers are attempting to "cash out" when the market is up and capture the profits. I understand what they are doing, and can appreciate it as I would like to do it, but it is too time consuming and you never know when the market has topped out. I read a book about it, but it is too much work. Maybe someone can explain to me why "buying and holding" as the majority of us do is better - it is confusing. I enjoyed the remark above about them being "piggies" funny, but true. And isn't it funny, how these timers, are so angry when they write in to defend themselves? I wish these Federal employees would give me my tax money's worth and get to work. My goodness gracious.
Happy Weekend ya'all!
APPLAUD and APPROVE
VA
Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:39 AM
I both applaud and approve of the decisions reached by the managers of the TSP to limit interfund transfers. Let the deviated rectums (the politically correct way to describe someone as an asshole) who consider themselves superior "traders" pull their funds out of TSP and invest them in the market by way of opening accounts at any of the number of trading organizations who advertise low per trade transaction fees. Richard A. Babcock, MBA.
TSP trading limits
FAA
Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:47 AM
The only thing I found harsh about the comments was the TSP's inability to answer why they will not let members manage their own money. If they have a cost for the trade pass it along to the trader. Who ever heard of a broker that refuses to do what the customer asks?? Just another Boston Tea Party, and that is not harsh but rather the simple, unabashed truth.
$16 Million Is Not a Low Number
DOD
Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:30 AM
Smith is nothing but a shill for the TSP board, who are in the pockets of Barclays.
Name withheld due to past retaliation by TSP ED
Diversity and Confusion
Air Force
Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:53 AM
I've tried to make the most of the rules for my future and my children. I have made money by switching funds often in the past, but right now I'm on the sidelines in G fund.
It was annoying at first, now it is just sad. So many people with more attitude than facts on such a serious and important subject.
Everyday the L Fund takes money out of the funds that did well and puts it in the funds that did worse, and calls it rebalancing. If that doesn't seem odd to you, then you should leave interfund transfers alone.
As for the costs of the frequent traders. Something is not right with the numbers. According to the information I found on the FRTIB website, the year they claim the 3,000 drove the price up, the reported price of trading dropped.
TSP is a great step forward in retirement planning. I wish they would finish the trip and truly enable the capable to actively build their retirement.
Bravo TSP Board!
Forest Service
Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:12 PM
How refreshing that the TSP Board had the guts to stand up to a very vocal minority trying to subterfuge the system on the backs of the majority! If more area of government would stand up like this, we would all be better off. Thank you!
When the bottom falls out
DOD
Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:29 AM
One reason wheeler-dealers don't want to go to an appropriate vehicle for their gambling is that they would lose the matching funds - funds that are not "theirs" on receipt.
One poster referred to TSP as a "broker", but as another correctly pointed out, TSP is NOT a brokerage account, nor is it intended to be. People need to keep this distinction in mind. I do not believe that the costs of frequent trades can be completely passed on to the ones causing the expense. The confusion and extra workload generated would simply be too great. Furthermore, it would lead to TSP becoming a brokerage-type account, which is VERY undesirable for the rest of us.
Last but not least, what would happen when the bottom dropped out, which it will? Cue the mewling: "The Board didn't do its job, . . . .", and watch how fast the hands come out. I can see that one coming a mile away!
Does anyone check???
USDA
Thu May 1, 2008 10:24 AM
Does anyone have the ability to verify the numbers the TSP Board claim? Hint to Ralph Smith: if you really want to be considered a diligent, thorough reporter, why not perform an investigative analysis and verify the information you presently copy/past things from the TSP Board and Federal Register.
You Do The Math !
EPA
Tue May 20, 2008 9:06 AM
We need to stop criticiziing those of us that used the system in the way it was intended to be used. Besides, if you look at the math you too will see that - even though $15 M is a lot of money when searching through one's own pockets - $15 M is not even a drop in the ocean when compared to the total value of the TSP ($216 B) Fund.
$15,000,000 / $216,000,000,000 = .00007% or seven one-hundred thousanths of a penny ! !
Re: You Do The Math !
DOAA
Fri Jun 6, 2008 5:04 PM
Beating the Market
DOD
Wed May 28, 2008 6:30 AM
The typical Federal worker is not going to beat the Market in the long run, and if they feel confident that they can perhaps they are in the wrong career. It is smarter to make an occasional trade based on trends, and the TSP is still allowing this.
C Fund Losses Today
Federal Govt
Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:02 PM
I think it was stated that B&H participants were losing about $16 per year as a result of some participants managing their TSP allocations. Today was a perfect example of why some of us choose to wisely manage our resources.
Approximately $29.37 was lost for each $1000 invested today in the C Fund today. That is almost 2 years worth of losses suffered by B&H folks resulting from the trading expenses of those who managed their TSP accounts - in 1 day.
Those that had $100,000 in the C Fund lost approximately $2,937 today; or 184 years worth of losses caused by your comrades who manage their TSP funds.
Those who had $1,000,000 suffered a loss of approximately $29,370 today. That is the equivalent of approximately 1,836 years of losses caused by your fellow employees who manage their TSP accounts.
Just the facts, mam, just the facts.