Just as the TSP in all their wisdom limited our ability to manage our accounts the markets take a nosedive. Nice.
Re: Just As We Are Restricted
Specialist USDA Thu Jul 3, 2008 7:00 AM
Of course there is no way to prove it but I don't believe in coincidences.
You don't think limiting fed workeer choices AND the volitile and then horrific stock market were linked? I certainly suspect they were.
Of course, most people - being pretty damn naive - didn't notice that their own rights to control their retirement were being severly limited. All they saw was the "boogyman" of non existant "day traders" adding to their expenses.
A simple analysis of the data indicated clearly that this was a red herring, the costs - per person amounted to practically nothing. But we ALL lost our rights, that might cost us thousands and thousands of dollars per year, to save a few penny's.
And the definaition of "day trader" was so manipulated that it lost all meaning, the TSP only let you move 1X per day, even under the old rule. That isn't what a "day trader" is, in fact, day traders buy/flip stocks all day long, usually making small amounts in hundreds of transactions.
Re: Just As We Are Restricted
MANAGER DOD Thu Jul 3, 2008 8:14 AM
No doubt, the recent restrictions imposed by the TSP that saved the vast majority of TSP investors money is also responsible for global warming, and the war in Iraq as well as the bear market in stocks. The price of oil, the possibility of Israel invading Iran and the meltdown in housing stock prices probably all pale in comparison to these horrendous restrictions to limit the frequent traders who are invested in the TSP.
Re: Just As We Are Restricted
Former HR Specialist Federal Agency Thu Jul 3, 2008 8:44 AM
Professional in Leg Branch,
You need to think beyond your venting. To manage your account to avoid the loses in the market, you would have moved your money into the G Fund. Movement of money into the G Fund was not restricted by the new rules, just so that we could avoid nosedives, just like we have just gone through. So what is your complaint?
Thrift Savings
Retired USPS Wed Jul 2, 2008 10:41 AM
Thrift Savings has been mismanaged since it started. The only gains it had were pure luck in the marketplace.
If Thrift Savings ever recovers, I am getting out.
Re: Thrift Savings
IT Spec dod Wed Jul 2, 2008 11:58 AM
How has it been mismanaged?
Re: Thrift Savings
Nameless, Faceless Nobody DOD Thu Jul 3, 2008 9:14 AM
Has anyone noticed that the entire world is seeing the markets nosedive?
G fund is a safe harbor to ride this out. You could have moved your shares there.
Now that I did NOT move my shares I will let them ride so I don't lock in the losses and can benefit when they rise again.
I am buying shares in my private account now that they have fallen so low so that when the market recovers, and it eventually will, I will profit from having more shares that increase in price.
If they never recover then we are likely in worse shape than just losing money in an investment account would be responsible for.
Re: Thrift Savings
worker bee fed agency Thu Jul 3, 2008 9:44 AM
Gee, retired USPS, you should have used that handy-dandy crystal ball of yours and gotten out years ago when everything was go, go, go. How about in 1999?
Nice comment, completely baseless as TSP reflects overall trends in the markets worldwide.
Re: Thrift Savings
Retired USPS Thu Jul 3, 2008 9:55 AM
It has been mismanged by the bottom line results. All my other investments have made me money consistently. Only the "Thrift Savings" has continually shown downward trends.
Re: Thrift Savings
IT Spec dod Thu Jul 3, 2008 10:34 AM
Retired USPS, you're asking it to do something it wasn't designed to do. It's an indexed based plan that follows the market. The market has gone down.
According to your definition of "mismanagement", all indexed based funds in the world(and there are a bunch of them) have been mismanaged in the short term.
If you're going to judge it's performance you need to figure out how it's designed to perform if you want your conclusions to be valid.
Never happy
retired U S P S Wed Jul 2, 2008 3:12 PM
If you FERS people were making a million you wouldn't be happy.The matching fund alone is worth the price of admission.
That's easy to say when you have a guaranteed retirement income that is fully indexed to the CPI.
Try being in a system where the gains and losses of the TSP effect the major portion of what you will have to live on in retirement, combined with a pension guaranteed to loose 1% every year and see if you feel the same way.
Re: Never happy
Salior DON Wed Jul 2, 2008 7:14 PM
Good point - if we are in a long term cyclical bear market - lasting 20 years or more- FERS folks are in very serious financial jeopardy. FERS folks who are healthy enough will simply not retire- die on the job - or if they are forced out they will get other jobs in their 70s and 80s - slowly moving down the employment chain from professional Fed to flipping bergers at Wendy's or cleaning toilets at hotels. These are the jobs you get when you are forced to work at age 70+. The equity and bond markets contain no guarantees for any positive return and poverty is one possible TSP outcome for millions of Feds under FERS - get those toilet scrumbers ready.
Re: Never happy
Programmer TSO Wed Jul 2, 2008 7:42 PM
Take any 20 year period in the last 100 years (including periods that have the '29 and '01 crash in them. Put the same amount of money in two pots, the first in large cap US stocks(similar to the C fund), the second money market rates (similar to the G fund).
In every single instance you'll have more money at the end of that 20 years in the stock pot than the money market pot.
Re: Never happy
Budget Analyst DoD Thu Jul 3, 2008 6:54 AM
I'm not going to debate the factual information that Programmer stated but I don't really agree with how Ibbott Associated (data source) portray that information. The problem is that our world is completely different now in the globalized economy and our dependence on food/oil and everything else that we import. If we don't have some REAL good years coming up, we'll really fall below the normal 20 yr return for the SP500 and other benchmarks. Reason is if you go back 20 yrs now you are going from 1988-2008 - that includes those great yrs from 1995-2000 plus you are figuring numbers after the 87 crash so it's a little misleading. If you look over the last 10 yrs the SP500 return has been only like 5% which is horrible. The G and F fund have outperformed the C fund over that time.
As to USPS, CSRS is way better than FERS - I would take the CSRS system over the FERS anyday. I came in way too late and didn't have the choice but and the match is only great if the market is doing well
Re: Never happy
Retired USPS Thu Jul 3, 2008 10:00 AM
Nothing says that you can't take money you would have invested in "Thrift Savings" and route it to investments that make more sense. I did. Isn't it incredible that the other investments made me money while the "Thrift Savings" was flat to downward. I guess if you get lazy, you reap what you sow.
Stop moaning and get a financial advisor. Mine only laughed at the Thrift Savings plan. So am I.
Re: Never happy
IT Spec dod Thu Jul 3, 2008 10:37 AM
If your financial advisor is competing with the TSP for investment money, therefore it's human nature for him/her not to speak favorably about it.
If you do the TSP, do it right
Analyst dod Wed Jul 2, 2008 5:31 PM
If you do the TSP right you can weather the storm of a bear market and still retire comfortably.
Short term versus long term
Former Finance Manager/Controller Us Postal Service/Now Retired Thu Jul 3, 2008 11:06 AM
Your comments about the ups and downs of the market are excellent. However, once someone retires and is not making new contributions to the Thrift Plan, managing your investments takes on a different methodology. This is where establishing the proper market share among the different funds comes into play. By rebalancing on a regular basis you can take advantage of the buy low sell high approach. Even though the G and F funds have done the best during the last year, they probably are now a higher market share of your original game plan. By selling them and buying the stock funds, you restore the original balance and buy the stocks at a lower price. Unfortunately, people have an emotional response to short term financial turmoil and fail to stick with their plans.
Retired USPS
IT Spec DOE Thu Jul 3, 2008 11:38 AM
"Stop moaning and get a financial advisor. Mine only laughed at the Thrift Savings plan. So am I. "
The bear market is not the fault of the TSP!
The TSP is the most efficiently run investment service out there. It is even cheaper than Vanguard. What you are complaining about is the rate of return generated by the overall markets; TSP funds are index funds.
Of course your financial salesman laughed at the TSP - all the way to the bank. Do you even know how much you are paying him in fees and commissions (are you in load funds, how much are your 12b fees, what are your expense ratios)?
Meanwhile, you pulled money out of the most inexpensive plan in existence. The TSP funds gave you enough options to put together a diversified portfolio. And, the risk free G fund is not available outside of the TSP.
You should start reading about investing, start with a book by Jack Bogle, founder of Vanguard and Father of index investing.
Salior DON
IT Spec DOE Thu Jul 3, 2008 1:02 PM
Well, we won't be suffering alone. With FERS we get a Cola'd base pension and health insurance for life plus the 5% matching on our TSP contributions.
The people I worry about are the ones who don't have pensions and retiree health care. There are also many 401k plans which have expense ratios so high it doesn't pay to use them, even considering the tax break.
The FERS retirement system puts more of the risk on the employees and requires more financial savy, but it's still a really good retirement system. The older I get the happier I am that I left private industry to work for the Feds.
My withdrawal plan is to pull from the G fund on years the stock markets are down and pull from the stock funds in the years the markets are up. This will also help with the portfolio balancing.
To Retired USPS
Eng. Tech DOD Thu Jul 3, 2008 3:42 PM
I did go see a financial manager curtisy of my bank and he looked at everything starting with my retirement goals to school for the kids. Not being able to profit off me, he had only good things to say about TSP. You need to find another manager....or start doing more homework instead of just taking his word for it. The more research you do, the more you will realize you've been had. You are at high risk for this in the future since you are already retired/elderly and not knowledgeble about your investments.
Mr. IT Spec with DOE, your plan won't work. When you retire and start withdrawing, you cannot specify which fund you want to withdraw from, it takes from all of the ones you have money in and evenly withdraws. The only way you could pull money out of your G fund is to put ALL of your money in that said fund.
Re: To Retired USPS
IT Spec DOE Wed Jul 9, 2008 10:16 AM
Hi Eng. Tech. Actually it's Ms. IT Spec. You raised a very good point about the withdrawal phase and using the TSP.
My only complaint about the TSP is the fact that the withdrawal options are so limited. I'm still five/six years away from retirement but I have some ideas as to what I will do.
I'm thinking I will convert the TSP to a Roth IRA over the first three years of my retirement (I won't yet be drawing a pension or SS, I'll be living on investments from a taxable account). I'll convert enough to put me into the 15% bracket each of the three years.
If anything is left over I will leave it in the G fund.
I was going to explain this in the last post but ran out of room.
Safety of Savings
Senior Manager IRS Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:05 AM
With banks closing and again being reminded that the FDIC only guarantee $100,000. initially, then if the banks fails only 50 cents per $1.00. is paid.
Are the funds in TSP safe and what tools do I use to ensure they are?
Just As We Are Restricted
Leg. Branch
Wed Jul 2, 2008 9:50 AM
Just as the TSP in all their wisdom limited our ability to manage our accounts the markets take a nosedive. Nice.
Re: Just As We Are Restricted
USDA
Thu Jul 3, 2008 7:00 AM
You don't think limiting fed workeer choices AND the volitile and then horrific stock market were linked? I certainly suspect they were.
Of course, most people - being pretty damn naive - didn't notice that their own rights to control their retirement were being severly limited. All they saw was the "boogyman" of non existant "day traders" adding to their expenses.
A simple analysis of the data indicated clearly that this was a red herring, the costs - per person amounted to practically nothing. But we ALL lost our rights, that might cost us thousands and thousands of dollars per year, to save a few penny's.
And the definaition of "day trader" was so manipulated that it lost all meaning, the TSP only let you move 1X per day, even under the old rule. That isn't what a "day trader" is, in fact, day traders buy/flip stocks all day long, usually making small amounts in hundreds of transactions.
Re: Just As We Are Restricted
DOD
Thu Jul 3, 2008 8:14 AM
Re: Just As We Are Restricted
Federal Agency
Thu Jul 3, 2008 8:44 AM
You need to think beyond your venting. To manage your account to avoid the loses in the market, you would have moved your money into the G Fund. Movement of money into the G Fund was not restricted by the new rules, just so that we could avoid nosedives, just like we have just gone through. So what is your complaint?
Thrift Savings
USPS
Wed Jul 2, 2008 10:41 AM
Thrift Savings has been mismanaged since it started. The only gains it had were pure luck in the marketplace.
If Thrift Savings ever recovers, I am getting out.
Re: Thrift Savings
dod
Wed Jul 2, 2008 11:58 AM
Re: Thrift Savings
DOD
Thu Jul 3, 2008 9:14 AM
G fund is a safe harbor to ride this out. You could have moved your shares there.
Now that I did NOT move my shares I will let them ride so I don't lock in the losses and can benefit when they rise again.
I am buying shares in my private account now that they have fallen so low so that when the market recovers, and it eventually will, I will profit from having more shares that increase in price.
If they never recover then we are likely in worse shape than just losing money in an investment account would be responsible for.
Re: Thrift Savings
fed agency
Thu Jul 3, 2008 9:44 AM
Nice comment, completely baseless as TSP reflects overall trends in the markets worldwide.
Re: Thrift Savings
USPS
Thu Jul 3, 2008 9:55 AM
Re: Thrift Savings
dod
Thu Jul 3, 2008 10:34 AM
According to your definition of "mismanagement", all indexed based funds in the world(and there are a bunch of them) have been mismanaged in the short term.
If you're going to judge it's performance you need to figure out how it's designed to perform if you want your conclusions to be valid.
Never happy
U S P S
Wed Jul 2, 2008 3:12 PM
If you FERS people were making a million you wouldn't be happy.The matching fund alone is worth the price of admission.
Re: Never happy
FAA
Wed Jul 2, 2008 4:15 PM
Try being in a system where the gains and losses of the TSP effect the major portion of what you will have to live on in retirement, combined with a pension guaranteed to loose 1% every year and see if you feel the same way.
Re: Never happy
DON
Wed Jul 2, 2008 7:14 PM
Re: Never happy
TSO
Wed Jul 2, 2008 7:42 PM
In every single instance you'll have more money at the end of that 20 years in the stock pot than the money market pot.
Re: Never happy
DoD
Thu Jul 3, 2008 6:54 AM
As to USPS, CSRS is way better than FERS - I would take the CSRS system over the FERS anyday. I came in way too late and didn't have the choice but and the match is only great if the market is doing well
Re: Never happy
USPS
Thu Jul 3, 2008 10:00 AM
Stop moaning and get a financial advisor. Mine only laughed at the Thrift Savings plan. So am I.
Re: Never happy
dod
Thu Jul 3, 2008 10:37 AM
If you do the TSP, do it right
dod
Wed Jul 2, 2008 5:31 PM
If you do the TSP right you can weather the storm of a bear market and still retire comfortably.
Short term versus long term
Us Postal Service/Now Retired
Thu Jul 3, 2008 11:06 AM
Your comments about the ups and downs of the market are excellent. However, once someone retires and is not making new contributions to the Thrift Plan, managing your investments takes on a different methodology. This is where establishing the proper market share among the different funds comes into play. By rebalancing on a regular basis you can take advantage of the buy low sell high approach. Even though the G and F funds have done the best during the last year, they probably are now a higher market share of your original game plan. By selling them and buying the stock funds, you restore the original balance and buy the stocks at a lower price. Unfortunately, people have an emotional response to short term financial turmoil and fail to stick with their plans.
Retired USPS
DOE
Thu Jul 3, 2008 11:38 AM
"Stop moaning and get a financial advisor. Mine only laughed at the Thrift Savings plan. So am I. "
The bear market is not the fault of the TSP!
The TSP is the most efficiently run investment service out there. It is even cheaper than Vanguard. What you are complaining about is the rate of return generated by the overall markets; TSP funds are index funds.
Of course your financial salesman laughed at the TSP - all the way to the bank. Do you even know how much you are paying him in fees and commissions (are you in load funds, how much are your 12b fees, what are your expense ratios)?
Meanwhile, you pulled money out of the most inexpensive plan in existence. The TSP funds gave you enough options to put together a diversified portfolio. And, the risk free G fund is not available outside of the TSP.
You should start reading about investing, start with a book by Jack Bogle, founder of Vanguard and Father of index investing.
Salior DON
DOE
Thu Jul 3, 2008 1:02 PM
Well, we won't be suffering alone. With FERS we get a Cola'd base pension and health insurance for life plus the 5% matching on our TSP contributions.
The people I worry about are the ones who don't have pensions and retiree health care. There are also many 401k plans which have expense ratios so high it doesn't pay to use them, even considering the tax break.
The FERS retirement system puts more of the risk on the employees and requires more financial savy, but it's still a really good retirement system. The older I get the happier I am that I left private industry to work for the Feds.
My withdrawal plan is to pull from the G fund on years the stock markets are down and pull from the stock funds in the years the markets are up. This will also help with the portfolio balancing.
To Retired USPS
DOD
Thu Jul 3, 2008 3:42 PM
I did go see a financial manager curtisy of my bank and he looked at everything starting with my retirement goals to school for the kids. Not being able to profit off me, he had only good things to say about TSP. You need to find another manager....or start doing more homework instead of just taking his word for it. The more research you do, the more you will realize you've been had. You are at high risk for this in the future since you are already retired/elderly and not knowledgeble about your investments.
Mr. IT Spec with DOE, your plan won't work. When you retire and start withdrawing, you cannot specify which fund you want to withdraw from, it takes from all of the ones you have money in and evenly withdraws. The only way you could pull money out of your G fund is to put ALL of your money in that said fund.
Re: To Retired USPS
DOE
Wed Jul 9, 2008 10:16 AM
My only complaint about the TSP is the fact that the withdrawal options are so limited. I'm still five/six years away from retirement but I have some ideas as to what I will do.
I'm thinking I will convert the TSP to a Roth IRA over the first three years of my retirement (I won't yet be drawing a pension or SS, I'll be living on investments from a taxable account). I'll convert enough to put me into the 15% bracket each of the three years.
If anything is left over I will leave it in the G fund.
I was going to explain this in the last post but ran out of room.
Safety of Savings
IRS
Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:05 AM
With banks closing and again being reminded that the FDIC only guarantee $100,000. initially, then if the banks fails only 50 cents per $1.00. is paid.
Are the funds in TSP safe and what tools do I use to ensure they are?