Environmental Specialist Department of Energy Wed Jul 9, 2008 7:53 AM
This is good advice for everybody, even your kids!
Concurrence
Regulatory Spec. USACE Wed Jul 9, 2008 7:59 AM
Very helpful advice
Local 1631 Advice from the Union President
Overage Wage Slave DoD Wed Jul 9, 2008 8:05 AM
This man is a very wise Leader. He offers some excellent advice that could also be used in dealing in Gov. to Contractor situations, regular employee reviews, and a multitude of other situations. One would hope he has the good fortune to interact with a Management Team that would match his high level of wisdom, integrety, and dedication. It would be very interesting indeed to watch the outcome of this man's dealings with his Management an see if his enlightened methods pay off. Too often Management regards any Union dealings as a "Game" they must "Win at All Costs" so as to "Take Them Down Once and For All" instead of a opproutunity for interaction. The same is true of the Union side, sometimes more so complicated by ignorance and a need to feed a deflated ego. Yes, I AM a Union Member and have been for over 30 years.
Good and bad...
Supervisor NAVAIR Wed Jul 9, 2008 8:06 AM
I thought it was good until #11. "Be suspicious, but respectful of management". Why not be respectful AND THEN be suspicious? In my own dealings with our local union the feeling of suspicion on both sides is typically what breaks the conversations down. I'm not saying that management is perfect either, but if the union is told to go into meetings being suspicious, then why shouldn't management do the same? Then there are #22 "Do not be intimidated by management's fear tactics." and #24 "Beware of divide and conquer tactics." Again, based only on my own experience (and I am not in the same locale/agency as the union in this article) these are tactics used very commonly by the union and not by management. Although I think this charter has some good advice for these particular union reps, it also appears to me that it's clearly advocating some of the same actions that commonly cause breakdowns in the discussions/negotiations between management and the unions.
Re: Good and bad...
LER DoD Wed Jul 9, 2008 8:46 AM
NAVAIR, those are the exact same items I have problems with as well. To assume there is something suspicious before you even meet to discuss already sets the tone for further communication. Not a good jumping off point. And yes, to declare mgt's "tactics" are intentionally meant to intimidate puts up the barrier and hinders potential resolution to the issue. Shouldn't the parties have grown up by now????
Re: Good and bad...
Program Analyst Fed Agency Wed Jul 9, 2008 8:46 AM
The union president probably has experience to back up his suspiciousness. Many ofhis record keeping suggestions and two union representatives at a meeting indicate that wariness of management should be SOP.
Re: Good and bad...
DOI employee BOR Wed Jul 9, 2008 8:52 AM
I think the items you pointed out that you don't like likely come form experience. We have a Union and I am an officer. We have a pretty good relationship with management but things seem to have changed somewhat when we started negotiating a contract. Now I'm seeing a completely different side of them. The very items you pointed out as not liking are the very ones I keyed on and said to myself - hmmm, good thnks to keep in mind. Apparently it depends on the color of glass one is looking through.
Re: Good and bad...
examiner IRS Wed Jul 9, 2008 10:47 AM
You have got to be kidding. I will be presumptuous and say you are a good supervisor who listens, acts fairly, and tries to work with employees instead of against them.
Management that I deal with believe in the gotcha approach instead of a reasonable approach. They say something and then deny saying it. If one does something a little wrong, but there are mitigating circumstances, they ignore the mitigating circumstances and amplify the something wrong. They have you violate the law(1203, the 10 deadly sins that can get you fired), but will not take responsibility when the problem blows up.
This is why one must be very careful when dealing with management.
Re: Good and bad...
Chris Bauder USBP/NBPC Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:39 PM
In response:
“Be suspicious, but respectful of management; thoroughly analyze their possible motivation.” The second part of the sentence explains what it means to be suspicious “thoroughly analyze their possible motivation.” It is important to understand the motivation that leads a party to take a position on an issue so the parties understand each other’s concerns (i.e. interest-based bargaining).
#22 – “Do not be intimidated by mgmt's fear tactics”. Some managers utilize fear tactics as do some Union officials. For this reason, the NBPC wants reps to know they don’t have to be intimidated by them if they encounter them. I might agree if it said: “Mgmt always uses fear tactics so do not be intimidated by them."
#24 – “Beware of divide and conquer tactics.” Why not alert reps to the possibility of officials using such tactics? We experienced a significant increase in D&C tactics in the past 3 years. I might agree if it said: "mgmt always uses D&C tactics so beware."
Finally
specialist/rep DOT Wed Jul 9, 2008 8:40 AM
Something upon which we can certainly all agree!
Total Agreement
Labor Relations Specialist USPS Wed Jul 9, 2008 8:51 AM
This goes for both sides of the aisle.
Relationships
Contract Specialist Federal Agency Wed Jul 9, 2008 9:37 AM
Union business consists, in large part, of bargaining and negotiation with management, which by nature is an adversarial relationship. Thus, to negotiate reasonable agreements, the union and management are required to be suspicious or questioning and discerning before agreeing to anything that will affect the membership and/or agency for years to come. Further, if you have ever studied negotiation even a little bit, you would know that there are all types of strategies and tactics to be aware of. As managers, I hope you will stop criticizing and finger pointing, and start listening and learning more.
Advice for New Reps
Federal union officer DOL Wed Jul 9, 2008 10:27 AM
Hats off to Chris. Every year when we have steward training, we go over these same points with both our new and old stewards in our "housekeeping session" before we actually start the training sessions. However, it only takes one bad apple to ruin it for the rest I'm going to copy this list and give it out at this years training session this month.
Artcle about local 1613
examiner IRS Wed Jul 9, 2008 10:39 AM
Good article. It is balanced. Write like this and you would be respected.
Someone call the Police, Bob Gilson has been abducted and replaced by his not so evil twin. That being said, 1613 has always been out front in the Labor Union business and it is due to their hard working officers and stewards. It is also an example of what having several full time union positions can do for a Union and in turn for an employer.
I Love You Chris!
Re: Who is This Man
BPA (SDC-BRF) USBP Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:54 PM
These points were not written by the current union folks. They were written by Joe Dassaro a former union President who now works on the agency side. They were first used in a steward manual he wrote around 1998 or 1999 and later put on the old website he ran. You can actually visit the old site by going to the internet archive at www.archive.org and type in the current web address of nbpc1613.org or the old one of borderpatrol1613.org which was the former site.
If I remember right, he said he wrote most of them but also grabbed a few from somewhere else.
ADVISE TO NEW LOCAL 1613 REPS
REVENUE OFFICER (RETIRED) INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:09 AM
nteu has always had a policy both nationally and locally which mirrors the advise offered by the border patrol council. you are always critical of federal labor unions and do not spend enough time writing about the crimes of management and why unions are a necessary part of federal work-life.
Do you really think this is the exception?
Union Rep NLRB Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:26 AM
Bob, you have got to be kidding me. Do you really think this union is the exception? This reaffirms to me your anti-Union bias, and complete misunderstanding of what Union's do.
As Federal Government employees, we all strive to do the best work we can do. In conjunction with our work, many of us are represented by a union. These public sector Unions enforce the workplace rights of their members. Many of these rights are collectively bargained and some that are given through statute. I know it’s hard for you to believe, but there are rouge managers among us who violate CBAs or government rules. Unions act to protect these rights, and do it a respectful way.
I know of no Union that advocates lying to management, abusing government rules and regulations, and in general trying to get over on management.
Clearly, your anti-Union bias comes out in this piece as you believe that that this Union is in the minority in how it conducts itself.
Re: Do you really think this is the exception?
LR Specialist Dod Agency Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:36 AM
While most unions would not post a code of conduct contrary to the one posted by the one cited in Bob's most recent article, the reality of their conduct is considerably different and Bob has, again, hit a nerve by daring to highlight a problem that many in the LR community know about but rarely discuss knowing it is not the politically correct position to take. It isn't his anti-union bias but his several decades of experience that reflect the reality of working in labor relations in the federal workplace that provide the background for his articles. Unfortunately, most federal employees never see these type of articles other than on the Fedsmith site as most news outlets choose not to mention anything that will result in the numerous charges of "anti-union bias" such as your rant has done.
Keep up the good work, Bob. The more complaints like this one you see probably mean you have hit a nerve with more truth and experience behind it than others will ever admit to.
wonderful!
Nameless, Faceless Nobody DOD Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:42 AM
It would be a nearly perfect work world if these concepts were adapted for management as well. It is natural that people disagree and have conflicting goals. Integrity and honest dealing would make the give and take needed to find real resolutions possible.
Advice for new local 1613
MSHA VP Local 2519 MSHA Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:24 PM
Would like a copy of your comments from that sent to me at ford.leroy@dol.gov.. Thought it was a very good article and good advice.
Thanks'
Leroy Ford
NBPC is the source for this list
Chris Bauder USBP/NBPC Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:23 PM
Mr. Gilson,
Thank you for the article, but the credit for this page and section of the Local’s website goes to the National Border Patrol Council (NBPC) www.nbpc.net. The “Advice to New Representatives” was chapter 12 of the 2001 NBPC Training Manual [http://www.nbpc1613.org/Pages/RepResources/Manual/Manual.htm]. The NBPC created the manual and advice page around 1995, after the current contract was agreed upon between INS and NBPC. Contrary to what one other reader wrote, the list was not written by a former Local 1613 President, nor was the training manual. Instead, it was uploaded to the Local’s site after the NBPC created a digital file of the training manual for Local 1613 to use.
Since this article was published, I received several emails from Union officers requesting to use the list. Anyone is free to use this list, but please remember the source is the National Border Patrol Council [www.nbpc.net], not Local 1613.
Common sense
Union steward USFS Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:08 PM
Isn't it obvious that the comments included in the article. "Can I join this Union? are only common sense. Isn't it obvious that if management and employees both follow these basic guidelines, everything would work great?
Unions
Electronic Technician BOP Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:48 AM
This was a very good aricle and that is a great web site with good advice I plan on using it.
Impressed
Retired Worked for several federal agencies Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:21 PM
I am impressed with this guidance from this union. Too often I have seen unions compromise the rights of employees by giving them wrong or bad information on if and when they should pursue a grievance.
Union Article
Systems Analyst DoD Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:26 AM
The one thing that I have to agree with is that if both sides would use the guide lines mentioned in the article relations between management and union reps would be much better.
My thoughts are that while most of us would hope that the officers of the union are there for altruistic reasons, the truth that I have seen in our local is that it is a spring board for the personal agendas of some of the officers. That is why it is terribly easy to find numerous articles where one or more officers have violated the trust of the local members by breaking laws.
The problem that I find in having been a member and done volunteer work for our local was that rarely was our local ‘fighting the good fight’ so to speak. It spent more time on dealing with delusional employees who thought that their bad behavior/practices would be excused and over looked because of the threat of a grievance. Very petty, and the single most obvious reason I cancelled my membership in our union. Don’t get me wrong, there is a place for unions in protecting the rights of employees, however when the union starts with a ‘be suspicious of management’ propaganda campaign, it creates an adversarial environment. This is always bad for everyone involved.
Advice to Local 1613 Reps
Department of Energy
Wed Jul 9, 2008 7:53 AM
This is good advice for everybody, even your kids!
Concurrence
USACE
Wed Jul 9, 2008 7:59 AM
Very helpful advice
Local 1631 Advice from the Union President
DoD
Wed Jul 9, 2008 8:05 AM
This man is a very wise Leader. He offers some excellent advice that could also be used in dealing in Gov. to Contractor situations, regular employee reviews, and a multitude of other situations. One would hope he has the good fortune to interact with a Management Team that would match his high level of wisdom, integrety, and dedication. It would be very interesting indeed to watch the outcome of this man's dealings with his Management an see if his enlightened methods pay off. Too often Management regards any Union dealings as a "Game" they must "Win at All Costs" so as to "Take Them Down Once and For All" instead of a opproutunity for interaction. The same is true of the Union side, sometimes more so complicated by ignorance and a need to feed a deflated ego. Yes, I AM a Union Member and have been for over 30 years.
Good and bad...
NAVAIR
Wed Jul 9, 2008 8:06 AM
I thought it was good until #11. "Be suspicious, but respectful of management". Why not be respectful AND THEN be suspicious? In my own dealings with our local union the feeling of suspicion on both sides is typically what breaks the conversations down. I'm not saying that management is perfect either, but if the union is told to go into meetings being suspicious, then why shouldn't management do the same? Then there are #22 "Do not be intimidated by management's fear tactics." and #24 "Beware of divide and conquer tactics." Again, based only on my own experience (and I am not in the same locale/agency as the union in this article) these are tactics used very commonly by the union and not by management. Although I think this charter has some good advice for these particular union reps, it also appears to me that it's clearly advocating some of the same actions that commonly cause breakdowns in the discussions/negotiations between management and the unions.
Re: Good and bad...
DoD
Wed Jul 9, 2008 8:46 AM
Re: Good and bad...
Fed Agency
Wed Jul 9, 2008 8:46 AM
Re: Good and bad...
BOR
Wed Jul 9, 2008 8:52 AM
Re: Good and bad...
IRS
Wed Jul 9, 2008 10:47 AM
Management that I deal with believe in the gotcha approach instead of a reasonable approach. They say something and then deny saying it. If one does something a little wrong, but there are mitigating circumstances, they ignore the mitigating circumstances and amplify the something wrong. They have you violate the law(1203, the 10 deadly sins that can get you fired), but will not take responsibility when the problem blows up.
This is why one must be very careful when dealing with management.
Re: Good and bad...
USBP/NBPC
Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:39 PM
“Be suspicious, but respectful of management; thoroughly analyze their possible motivation.” The second part of the sentence explains what it means to be suspicious “thoroughly analyze their possible motivation.” It is important to understand the motivation that leads a party to take a position on an issue so the parties understand each other’s concerns (i.e. interest-based bargaining).
#22 – “Do not be intimidated by mgmt's fear tactics”. Some managers utilize fear tactics as do some Union officials. For this reason, the NBPC wants reps to know they don’t have to be intimidated by them if they encounter them. I might agree if it said: “Mgmt always uses fear tactics so do not be intimidated by them."
#24 – “Beware of divide and conquer tactics.” Why not alert reps to the possibility of officials using such tactics? We experienced a significant increase in D&C tactics in the past 3 years. I might agree if it said: "mgmt always uses D&C tactics so beware."
Finally
DOT
Wed Jul 9, 2008 8:40 AM
Something upon which we can certainly all agree!
Total Agreement
USPS
Wed Jul 9, 2008 8:51 AM
This goes for both sides of the aisle.
Relationships
Federal Agency
Wed Jul 9, 2008 9:37 AM
Union business consists, in large part, of bargaining and negotiation with management, which by nature is an adversarial relationship. Thus, to negotiate reasonable agreements, the union and management are required to be suspicious or questioning and discerning before agreeing to anything that will affect the membership and/or agency for years to come. Further, if you have ever studied negotiation even a little bit, you would know that there are all types of strategies and tactics to be aware of. As managers, I hope you will stop criticizing and finger pointing, and start listening and learning more.
Advice for New Reps
DOL
Wed Jul 9, 2008 10:27 AM
Hats off to Chris. Every year when we have steward training, we go over these same points with both our new and old stewards in our "housekeeping session" before we actually start the training sessions. However, it only takes one bad apple to ruin it for the rest I'm going to copy this list and give it out at this years training session this month.
Artcle about local 1613
IRS
Wed Jul 9, 2008 10:39 AM
Good article. It is balanced. Write like this and you would be respected.
Who is This Man
US Border Patrol
Wed Jul 9, 2008 12:24 PM
Someone call the Police, Bob Gilson has been abducted and replaced by his not so evil twin. That being said, 1613 has always been out front in the Labor Union business and it is due to their hard working officers and stewards. It is also an example of what having several full time union positions can do for a Union and in turn for an employer.
I Love You Chris!
Re: Who is This Man
USBP
Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:54 PM
If I remember right, he said he wrote most of them but also grabbed a few from somewhere else.
ADVISE TO NEW LOCAL 1613 REPS
INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE
Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:09 AM
nteu has always had a policy both nationally and locally which mirrors the advise offered by the border patrol council. you are always critical of federal labor unions and do not spend enough time writing about the crimes of management and why unions are a necessary part of federal work-life.
Do you really think this is the exception?
NLRB
Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:26 AM
Bob, you have got to be kidding me. Do you really think this union is the exception? This reaffirms to me your anti-Union bias, and complete misunderstanding of what Union's do.
As Federal Government employees, we all strive to do the best work we can do. In conjunction with our work, many of us are represented by a union. These public sector Unions enforce the workplace rights of their members. Many of these rights are collectively bargained and some that are given through statute. I know it’s hard for you to believe, but there are rouge managers among us who violate CBAs or government rules. Unions act to protect these rights, and do it a respectful way.
I know of no Union that advocates lying to management, abusing government rules and regulations, and in general trying to get over on management.
Clearly, your anti-Union bias comes out in this piece as you believe that that this Union is in the minority in how it conducts itself.
Re: Do you really think this is the exception?
Dod Agency
Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:36 AM
Keep up the good work, Bob. The more complaints like this one you see probably mean you have hit a nerve with more truth and experience behind it than others will ever admit to.
wonderful!
DOD
Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:42 AM
It would be a nearly perfect work world if these concepts were adapted for management as well. It is natural that people disagree and have conflicting goals. Integrity and honest dealing would make the give and take needed to find real resolutions possible.
Advice for new local 1613
MSHA
Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:24 PM
Would like a copy of your comments from that sent to me at ford.leroy@dol.gov.. Thought it was a very good article and good advice.
Thanks'
Leroy Ford
NBPC is the source for this list
USBP/NBPC
Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:23 PM
Mr. Gilson,
Thank you for the article, but the credit for this page and section of the Local’s website goes to the National Border Patrol Council (NBPC) www.nbpc.net. The “Advice to New Representatives” was chapter 12 of the 2001 NBPC Training Manual [http://www.nbpc1613.org/Pages/RepResources/Manual/Manual.htm]. The NBPC created the manual and advice page around 1995, after the current contract was agreed upon between INS and NBPC. Contrary to what one other reader wrote, the list was not written by a former Local 1613 President, nor was the training manual. Instead, it was uploaded to the Local’s site after the NBPC created a digital file of the training manual for Local 1613 to use.
Since this article was published, I received several emails from Union officers requesting to use the list. Anyone is free to use this list, but please remember the source is the National Border Patrol Council [www.nbpc.net], not Local 1613.
Common sense
USFS
Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:08 PM
Isn't it obvious that the comments included in the article. "Can I join this Union? are only common sense. Isn't it obvious that if management and employees both follow these basic guidelines, everything would work great?
Unions
BOP
Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:48 AM
This was a very good aricle and that is a great web site with good advice I plan on using it.
Impressed
Worked for several federal agencies
Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:21 PM
I am impressed with this guidance from this union. Too often I have seen unions compromise the rights of employees by giving them wrong or bad information on if and when they should pursue a grievance.
Union Article
DoD
Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:26 AM
The one thing that I have to agree with is that if both sides would use the guide lines mentioned in the article relations between management and union reps would be much better.
My thoughts are that while most of us would hope that the officers of the union are there for altruistic reasons, the truth that I have seen in our local is that it is a spring board for the personal agendas of some of the officers. That is why it is terribly easy to find numerous articles where one or more officers have violated the trust of the local members by breaking laws.
The problem that I find in having been a member and done volunteer work for our local was that rarely was our local ‘fighting the good fight’ so to speak. It spent more time on dealing with delusional employees who thought that their bad behavior/practices would be excused and over looked because of the threat of a grievance. Very petty, and the single most obvious reason I cancelled my membership in our union. Don’t get me wrong, there is a place for unions in protecting the rights of employees, however when the union starts with a ‘be suspicious of management’ propaganda campaign, it creates an adversarial environment. This is always bad for everyone involved.