"When employees tell me that they are considering filing a complaint or grievance and request advice, I typically ask them if they are prepared to take on the whole agency, which I think is, in essence, what happens."
That's exactly what happens. The EEO, union, MSPB, you name are all pro-management. I've seen and been part of complaint processes and you'll have to remember your case could drag on and on in court. Agencies have lawyers but you have to pay out of pocket. Agencies will drag out cases for years upon years until they deplete your bank account and can no longer afford an attorney. I've seen people lose and some walking away with 6 figures...
Re: Can you afford it?
Retired Air Traffic Controller FAA Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:43 AM
It is obvious that the author is pro-management. I retired after being subjected to numerous instances of blatant disparate treatment. All management stuck together like glue. I was lucky enough to retire, altho would not have had the work environment not been so hostile. Those currently working would like to file, but are very hesitant due to the retaliation that they know others who have filed have experience. Even the EEO investigator weighed the deck by interviewing numerous management officials and only 1 controller out of 10 that I gave names of who could collaberate the ongoing disparate treatment.
Re: Can you afford it?
Un-Insubordinate GSA-until I requested a reasonable accomodation Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:32 PM
My EEO claim was shuffled between the Dallas Office and GSA for 6 years. In Jan. 2002 I brought my disability claim to the attention of Judge Rosenberg, requesting that he combine it with her other like/related claims. Rosenberg refused and told me I would have to file another EEO complaint. About March 02, I filed the complaint with the EEO Officer. The EEO Officer dismissed my claim claiming that it was already the subject of the complaint that Rosenberg presided. I appealed this dismissal to the OFO and it was remanded it because they found that I raised new issues not a part of the other claim. The Agency was ordered to investigate claim within 3 months. I received my copy of the March 2004, report and contacted the Dallas Ofc and requested a hearing. Judge Lewis held a hearing on Sept 5, 2007, and did not deliver his decision until May 29, 2008 and although I proved discrimmination, he ruled in favor of the Agency, However I was not surprised.
Filing an EEO
Justice will prevail Dept. of VA Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:06 AM
I wholeheartedly disagree with the last statement of "voting with their feet." Employees who have a valid reason for filing an EEO, whether or not they will be perceived as a trouble-maker, should in fact, stay the course, and allow the process to take shape. There are too many occasions where the employee is seeking to converse with Managers and/or Management without being given the opportunity, until of course, the dreaded EEO is filed. Therefore, if Managers, etc., are unwilling to listen prior to the filing of the case, what assurance does the employee have that the Managers, etc., will come to the table with an open mind. Upon a successful victory, perhaps the Managers, etc., will rethink future decisions to ignore the employee. The employee should not be obligated to leave so that Managers, etc., have an easier road in not addressing the issue. Managers would effectively aid in the continuing problem.
Re: Filing an EEO
Consultant none Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:14 PM
I agree. In many cases (at least with my clients), upper management really does want to know if a manager is not considering candidates on anything other than qualifications. Although "voting with your feet" might be the only option available, if you approach the process with the same professionalism that you recommend for talking with your supervisor, the complaint process may be helpful.
Why give up tenure without at least giving the grievance process a chance? If you do leave, you can always tell your next employer (truthfully) that you left because you felt like your career opportunities were limited in your old job.
Re: Filing an EEO
HR Manager (Retired) DoD Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:03 PM
Agree with "Justice's" comments. If employees "vote with their feet" an agency's mismanagement practices will never be corrected. One thing I learned while serving as an arbitration program judge for my installation was that we were able to make our base a better place to work by listening to those who filed complaints or grievances.
EEO/Grievance Advice
Claims Representative SSA Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:22 AM
The author gives some good advice, about informal discussions and about the danger of miscommunication. However, when recommending whom to approach for support and advice on grievance issues, he fully exhibits his management-advisor background.
Most federal employees have union representation. And those so blessed also have a grievance procedure that can proceed to resolution before an impartial arbitrator-- because their union negotiated to have that system. Their union also has experience in dealing with a wide variety of EEO and grievance issues, and in doing so from the employees' side, not from management's. If a bargaining-unit employee has a potential EEO or grievance issue, the first person to talk to is your union representative.
Re: EEO/Grievance Advice
Civilian DoD Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:10 AM
You need to read your negotiated agreement before you file a grievance concerning an EEO issue. Some agreements exclude EEO complaints from the grievance process. And you should also know that you cannot file both a grievance (if covered) and an EEO complaint. You have to make a choice in which forum you'll proceed.
Re: EEO/Grievance Advice
Union member of NTEU Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:16 AM
I disagree with your advice about going to the union rep. I've seen too many cases where the union is only interested in pursuing the complaint if it is a "slam dunk" that will improve their "credentials" as winning the Battle of the Lowly Worker vs. Mean Old Management.
Any route you take - union, eeo, etc - it will be YOU vs. The AGENCY as managers will circle the wagons around one of their own, regardless of that person's record of other complaints being filed. We never see managers demoted or let go, regardless of an easily discernible pattern of complaints (formal and informal) made against the bad manager. At most, they will attend "sensitivity training," but, since they are never wrong in the first place, the training never penetrates their Shield of Imperviousness.
Are you ready to take on the agency? You probably will be labeled a troublemaker. You may get this promotion (to get you out of the way), but it's still a ladder with only one rung.
FACTS
EEO Complaintaint DHS Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:48 AM
I think in a nutshell, what is really being said, is the system is designed for the employer and not the employee and by far user friendly for either party. Maybe the EEO & MSPB needs redesigned into a singular system and all EEO activities need removed to an independent agency.
Re: FACTS
manager DOT Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:05 AM
I totally disagree that the system is biased towards the management. An employee is allowed to file an EEO case with absolutely no justification or facts. This would not be allowed in private industry as no company could survive with this system. The amount of expense and time devotred to affidavits, interviews and arbitration is excessive. There are definitely valid cases but there are also many frivolous cases that are filed punitively against managers and employees are never held responsible. Even cases that have no validity as EEO cases are agreed to by upper management to avoid a long and time consuming outcome.
EEO
EPS EPA Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:50 AM
As an employee who has filed and won an EEO complaint against an Agency, as well as a six figure monetary award, I wanted to let you know that no one can emphasize the physical and mental drain that occurs as a direct result of the case. It also takes two years out of your life, that can never be replaced. I always ask each person who approaches me about filing an EEO action, "are you willing to give up your quality of life for the next two years,for this case and how much do you have in savings?" EEO cases are costly in your time, the Agency's time and the EEO Administrative Judge's time, and attorney fees.
Although most folks are not willing to sit down with their supervisor and discuss the problem, they are willing to step outside their organization and consult with another person. Take full advantage of the Employee Assistance Program!
Re: EEO
25 years of Superior Service USDA Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:12 AM
Hey, I have a case that the Judge issued and Acknowledgement and Order two years ago and nothing since, in spite of over a dozen motions. Four agency representatives during that time.
Re: EEO
HR Manager (Retired) DoD Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:35 PM
Great information - much better than that in the article. In the end the decision to file or not file a complaint or grievance is a very personal one and the decision impacts people differently. Discussing one's decision with someone you trust is very important. In my 36 plus years of HR experience, including time as a CPO, I found that it always seem better to "take the risk" if the employee truely felt there was a problem.
Are You Kidding ME!!!
Fed Worker & Union Guy DOD Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:52 AM
This article implies that there are nearly zero cases where an EEO complaint, or grievance is necessary, or has any chance of being sucessful. The last paragraph tells the worker to vote with his feet & leave/resign. How could you publish something so anti-worker rights & protections. This is why we have laws & people who assist in their enforcement, such as unions & EEO. This reminds me of our local civilian personnelists. They tell employees that managment can do whatever they want. And, we keep on winning grievances. Will they ever learn??
Re: Are You Kidding ME!!!
Editor DoD Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:16 PM
I agree - I don't think employees should be "forced out" just because management is making things miserable. In the case of me and my teammates, we all went in together on the complaint. What resulted was really only a couple of mediation sessions, but it was successful in that the boss knew we weren't just going to roll over and cow-tow to his whims. We were able to air our grievances and the boss actually did change SOME behaviors. Then, a couple of years later - HE left the agency. Sometimes consulting with EEO is worthwhile. But trust is the major issue.
Re: Are You Kidding ME!!!
Safety VA Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:01 PM
I have worked with four agencies and I worked for 10 years with the first agency until I filed an EEO. I have been running from that agency ever since and trying to get back home (where my family is and I was born) but every job (289 jobs) that I have applied for with DoN and DoA in that town gets canceled after I make the cert list or it gets opened up agin with different criteria for eligibility. My name is marked in black at every agency I have gone to. Call it a conspiracy theory. I thought so at first, but I discovered that 4 years later, a person who worked for (retired Capt) DoN as a civilian contacted the third agency I worked for (I never knew the man) two months before I arrived in order to let the agency know that I had filed EEOs when I worked for the navy. If it had not been for the occ health nurse who told me what happened I would have continued thinking that I was crazy since I kept being turned down for jobs (I am a GS-12 but cannot even get a job as a GS-7)
Vote with your feet
examiner IRS Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:56 AM
Although the article makes sense, the last paragraph is incomplete.
First, before you vote with your feet, make sure you have another job that is good. The job market stinks now and has not been good for a long time. Second, talk to the union steward if you are a union member. I am aware that the union represents everyone in the bargaining unit, but certain services are given to union members and not to non union people. I do not know the break in point.
Re: Vote with your feet
Justice will prevail Dept. of VA Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:44 AM
Attorney's are not provided for the non-dues-paying member, however, all other services should be provided because as a Federal employee, they are entitled, whether or not they choose to pay dues. The non-paying dues member should realize though, that services being provided to them limits available resources to those who should have priority as a dues-paying member.
EEO/GRIEVANCE ADVICE
Federal union officer/steward DOL Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:23 AM
Sometimes the "Act" is so blantant that an employee should file an EEO or Grievance immediately. I prefer that an employee feel free to contact me because what most people forget in going through informal discussion with the person who committed the "Act" is that there are time limitations both under EEO and the CBA. As Federal employees we don't give up our rights because we are civil servants and advising people to "vote with their feet" is asking them to give up those rights.
EEO
Emp DoD Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:23 AM
I think the statement concerning voting with your feet is taken too lightly by the other commentors. The stress involved with staying the course in a complaint is tremendous. No amount of compensation, even if you do win, is worth the strain and possible permanent effect on your mental health. You have to decide if winning your case is really worth it. What will your life be like if you don't win? You need to do a reality check at some point. Nobody is saying not to file or put up with discrimination. Just know what you are getting into before you proceed.
Sad
Nameless, Faceless Nobody DOD Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:25 AM
It is likely true that the only practical option is to vote with your feet. That many managers are clearly, some very openly, acting in ways that are against the law and hurt people for seriously illegal reasons is beyond question. That they will get a way with it in most of the time is also beyond question. This from one who was a collateral duty EEO counselor for many years.
The steps outlined in this article will only work if you have well-meaning and competent managers and employees. For them, just getting everyone talking helps a LOT.
Most managers are probably are well-meaning. Competence is more in question. That many are neither is the sad story of government employment.
I call it, "Trading in my frustrations for a new set," as I know no job is perfect and once I have settled into a interesting new set of duties then the frustrations familiar to those duties will start poking their pointy little heads over the edge of my desk.
But it is all about survival.
The black eye may never heal
Been there, done that DOT Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:31 AM
I have been in the position of having to decide if what I was about to do was going to be helpful, or if I was committing career suicide.
As a non-bargaining employee, the "choice", in my opinion, was really limited to filing an EEO complaint. Not so much as there was a violation of my EEO rights, although there was, but more so as needing an unbiased party to hear my case and see through the lies and deception the other side was telling.
Steve is correct in saying it is you against the entire organization. So you better have a bullet proof case for it is going to be very brutal and very ugly.
If you are as lucky as I was you will walk away from it all knowing who your true friends are. And maybe, just maybe, the black eye will fade away to a permenant shade of very light green. Just consider it a battle scare.
sometimes you just have to
Retired Letter Carrier USPS Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:40 AM
I was told "get your ass back to your case" as I deposited mail on the throw-back case on my way to clock-off for the day. I finished my route first of 30 city carriers and was informed I had to go back out -- there were two sets of mail on the floor -- one curbside delivery -- the other all walking. I thought I should have first choice since not on OT list, and had walked all day; the 204-B said "I have been informed to walk your ass off." I was assaulted on a route I was instructed to go help one day -- and the same supervisor said it was my fault? I went to the police station after work to file charges, and the supervisor had told them that -- I had witnesses as to what had happened, and I don't understand how it was my fault. The customer was angry they got their mail late. I had a Special Achievement Award in my folder. I just refused to play the little "sexual" games the supervisor played. My husband doesn't curse at me -- and I am not going to allow a supervisor to.
sometimes you just have to
Retired Letter Carrier USPS Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:45 AM
The outcome of my EEO was simply an admission of guilt and an apology. My fellow employees who witnessed the verbal assaults were punished on down the road. One of the witnesses could not take it anymore, and retired early. I retired early at 56 years 11 months to the day. The retaliation would never ease. I worked hard every single day. I out-worked most carriers simply because I am a hard worker and like to work hard. The supervisor is still there and has had several EEO's and grievances filed against him. The agency just doesn't get it.
another opportunity for resolution
Conflict Resolution Specialist EPA Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:04 AM
Your comments and suggestions are worthy. You suggest that an individual facing a difficult conversation or circumstance speak to EEO and HR counselors and to the agency's Employee Assistance Program after speaking directly to their supervisor. Individuals who feel empowered and confident to do so may be able to follow this advice. Others may find that more difficult. Some agencies have an Alternative Dispute Resolution program outside of their EEO offices that can be of assistance. I want to add the recommendation that employees seek to identify such a program within their agency. The staff of such a program may be able to coach you and empower you to have the recommended difficult conversation with your boss or facilitate that difficult conversation with the both of you. They may also be able to help each individual involved to more clearly see the position and interests of the other individual.
EEO Complaints
GSA Employee GSA Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:32 AM
I successfully filed and won two separate EEO cases an a previous agency, filed one non EEO complaint with another and won. Have considered filing twice since being at GSA and decided that my complaints would not be accepted even on its merits. The only successful complaints at GSA are those filed by minorities, regardless of age or gender. The suggestion to speak with a supervisor is ridiculous since their actions are often the reason a complaint is contemplated. Although the EAP is an option, they really cannot "fix" the problem, but they will listen. In my case, the filing was to stop the action..not just for me but others. It worked. There should be an Ombudsperson (neutral) to be available to hear both sides and then recommend either filing the official complaint/working out a solution. Alternate Dispute Resolution seems like a good idea, but they are volunteers and most are reluctant to trust a co-worker with their deepest concerns with no guarantee of privacy.
Re: EEO Complaints
Un-Insubordinate GSA-until I requested a reasonable accomodation Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:17 PM
"The only successful complaints at GSA are those filed by minorities"
Surely you gest. I am an AfricanAmerican Disabled Female that HAD a 23 year squeaky clean work record UNTIL I requested a reasonable accommodation. After my request I was reprimanded, suspended and terminated within a year.
Perception
Project Manager DoD Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:49 AM
Problem with the Writers comments is putting a lot of effort into resolving problems with a supervisor and his Chain of Command, that created the problem(s) in the first place. If you wait and try to use "the System" you will find that your door to filing a "for third party review process" will be closed due to being untimely. And if you think "They" don't know this, you really have a problem. You need to File the complaint as soon as you think or know that something is amist. You can always withdraw it. In my 30 plus years of service, I have found very few manager that have intergrity when owning up to be wrong. The whole chain that circles the wagons to protect the bad. Question for all out there. How many of you know of a manager being removed from service by his Chain of Command without the intervention of a Third Party Review?
EEO VS CIVIL RIGHTS
UNIT MANAGER BUREAU OF PRISONS Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:07 PM
sir, i've read your commentary and i feel that it stinks. this agency has long been a good ol' boy system. racism continues to strieve high in this day and time. yes, racism, where the eeo code doesn't matter. people just deal with these issues because they need a job. people like myself who have been blackballed in the system continue to strive for equeal rights and equal justice. therefore, why should i walk away from my present job and began at the bottom? you make no sense and should consider another career.
EEO and the end result
AO CIS Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:43 PM
The problem with some EEOs filed is truly knowing the end result. When you have an employee who filed an EEO and claims he/she was awarded $500.00 and their job back as the end result, it only gets other people more excited about filing. The fact is, there was not $500.00 awarded to the individual. If people are truly honest about what truly happened after a grievence or EEO was filed, more people would think twice. It is the blow-hards that get things stired up.
Stay and Fight
HR Consultant Retired Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:46 PM
In response to the suggestion to voting with his/her feet, that is not always possible. A person may have reached an age or have physical disabilities that make finding another job or possibly moving to another area extremely difficult. Sometimes, the only viable options are to accept the discrimination and walk away or retire defeated, or to stay and fight. My lawyers and I won an EEO case Federal court jury verdict and court judgment after a six year fight. My case went through the agency processes, the EEOC, and finally to Federal court. It was worth the fight and my victory was sweet and a total vindication. The author of the article makes many good points, but he apparently does not recognize that agency management sometimes commits illegal discrimination and that employees have legal rights to oppose such discrimination. What good are the EEO laws and regulations if management ignores them and employees cannot effectively use those processes?
EEO???
WORKER IN FEDERAL SERVICE USMC Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:47 PM
I have worked at this command for some time.
I have seen and heard it all.
A lady setting in the cube next to me. She had her supervisor in her office and she was explaining what she needed and required.
The supervisor did not pay any attention to her. WHen she filed an EEO complain the supervisor was telling everyone that she never talked and told him.
We all knew that he was lieing
but the rvisor thought he did not have to comply with the law.
The command is still protecting him (He is one of the good old boys). Instead of the command making him go back to get more supervisor training he is continuing to make everyones lives terrible.
The Command and EEO are in bed together and this could end the command because so many people heard this supervisor.
Again - EEO does nothing.
The individual's life is terrible and all the co-workers know what is going on.
Voted with my feet
currently unemployed AF Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:33 PM
I had been with the federal government for 8 years (I'm in my 50s) and unfortunately got a promotion to work for a female Colonel in the AF. Before going to work for her, I had had two performance awards the year before as well as previous years. I went to work for this lady and she yelled and screamed at both myself and the Supt. I'd never seen anything like that in my life. Three months on the job, she put me on a PIP. My big sin was that I required some learning time before I could hit the floor running. The Union told me to file an EEO Complaint. She was such an abusive person that even though I knew she was wrong in how she treated me; I really didn't think I could emotionally handle going through an EEO Complaint. I quit my job (there were no other jobs available at this small AFB in NM). Was able to get unemployment. But when she found out, she demanded that Personnel file against my getting unemployment. I lost unemp rights & have to pay back $2600 somehow.
Re: Voted with my feet
Fed Peasant DOD Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:59 PM
I understand what you did, although I don't fully agree with it. Our employer uses COLD CALCULATIONS to harass, intimidate, abuse, & committ career assisination. It's almost criminal, and sometimes it is criminal. You have to stand & fight. If not for yourself, at least for your family & the cause of right & wrong. Next time include a lawyer in your choices.
Re: Voted with my feet
Former State Unemployment Now DOD Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:20 AM
When your supervisor selected you for your new position, they did not make a careful evaluation of your experience. They chose the wrong person and that is entirely their fault. Receiving a Performance Improvement Plan within such a short period of time after starting the new job is proof of their bad judgment in hiring you for this type of work. You became overwhelmed. Bring this to the attention of the Unemployment Office judge. If your protest time has passed, just ask for reconsideration anyway since this is new and material evidence that just came to light. All my best.
Look before you leap
Retired Analyst DIA Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:54 PM
I think Steve made many good points, but I his remark about "taking on the whole agency" is worth commenting on. Also, I agree that leaving the agency and/or office is the least painful solution, but why not avoid it in the first place? All agencies/departments are not identical. Potential employees should closely study the culture of their intended agency/department before they sign on the dotted line. DOD for example, is a male-dominated environment where orders are given, not questioned, and the mission trumps the employees needs/wants every time. It's a no-win situation, so even if a potential employee likes the work, can they live with that kind of rigidity? That person might be more comfortable working for the State Dept, as it is in my experience much more sensitive to their employee's needs. I think it comes down to the individual and what they are willing to endure. if you want a smooth career, then do your homework. If not, be prepared for a potentially very bumpy ride.
Re: Look before you leap
HR DoD Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:11 AM
Taking on the whole agency refers to the complaint being between the employee (the complainant) and the agency itself. Employees mistakenly believe they are filing against a specific individual or individuals within their command/office, etc., but that's not case. If you've ever filed a complaint you will see that it is referred to as, for example, John A. Smith (Complainant) v. Donald C. Winter (Secretary of Navy), Dept of Navy. Also, taking on a whole agency means exactly that. All those within the Agency, i.e., Agency Reps, legal, etc., with the responsibility of reviewing, deciding, etc., are involved at some point in the complaint/hearing process.
EEO Complaints
Justice will prevail Dept. of VA Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:46 AM
ALWAYS GET A LAWYER if, of course, you have the resources. Even though you will be viewed as a problem upon filing the EEO, it is worth it to let Managers know that "you are not afraid." Is anyone remembering that GOD sees it all and things DO work out for the best. I have seen Managers suddenly retire and others be "relocated" after filing a successful EEO claim. Yes, sometimes it does work, particularly when Management knows their dirt will be uncovered.
Your statement that EAP counselors have no ties to the agency? Are they not paid by the agency? Do they not have an unwritten obligation to report to the agency? It is difficult to see how the agency does not still have the advantage?
Voted With My Feet, Sorry Taxpayer
Self-Employed Formerly Department of Labor Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:06 PM
When a productive and competent federal employee refuses to tolerate inhumane and illegal conditions, the taxpayer loses. Give them no other choice but to resign, and they will. What is truly unfortunate is that those that are left are nothing but yes-men and women who will do anything to feed their families -- often to the detriment of the people they are supposed to serve in their public service roles.
What I experienced was beyond words. What those that remain are experiencing is beyond words. I still get calls from one employee concerned about a coworker who makes serious safety threats. It's sad that this guy thinks that I'm able or willing to do something to fix a place I fled in fear a year ago. I couldn't do anything as a manager then -- I certainly can't do anything now. EEO is broken; management is broken. The laws no longer work, and we've done nothing to stand up for civil servants' rights.
Saga of the UN-proven Charge
Un-Insubordinate GSA-until I requested a reasonable accomodation Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:57 PM
I filed a petition for review of a removal charge that the MSPB AJ collectively wrote in her initial decision was not proven by the Agency, but she mitigated the removal of the unproven charge to a 90-day suspension. I filed a petition for review of the 90-day suspension. I returned to work and remained for over a year and a half without incident. Although the Board on petition for review also agreed with the AJ's initial decision (charge not proven) over-turned the AJ's 90-day suspension and upheld the agency's unproven charge and removed me. Later, the OWCP approved an emotional claim with a doctors letter that demonstrated causal connection between my injury, the environment and the (unproven) charge. I provided the Board with this information and requested a restoration hearing. The AJ sent out his order instructing me to prove the Board had jurisdiction. I proved that the Board had jurisdiction and the AJ set a merit hearing date. When that hearing date had to be canceled, he rescheduled the merit hearing date, and another merit hearing date. Suddenly the AJ took a giant step backwards and stated that he could not find that the Board had jurisdiction in my appeal that he earlier found to have merit. AJ said that he could understand what the doctor said about the causal connection between my injury and the [un]proven charge, but since the 1st AJ said she could not find that my [un]proven charged actions were caused by my medical condition he would stick with that, over-ruling the official medical diagnosis for a legal diagnosis of his peer.
Please do not try to understand this - just roll with the flow....
EEO
Letter Carrier USPS Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:58 AM
I agree caution should be used in the filing of an EEO. It is not a remedy for all disagreements in the workplace. The process is long and frustrating. Even if the complainant receives a favorable decision from the EEO Administrative Judge who hears the appeal, the agency does not have to honor the decision. By law, the agency is permitted to render a final agency decision modifying or even ignoring the judge's written decision. If the complainant does not agree with the final decision notice, then appeal rights to the EEOC or to file a civil action in the U.S. District Court are extended. The Federal Government modifies very few decisions favorable to the agency, but does modify the majority of initial decisions not to its liking. In the my opinion, this is a truly absurd situation that only favors the employer, not the complainant or the EEO Administrative Judge.
Be Smart
ret Mgr Civ Agency Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:26 PM
Employees thinking about filing should talk to other employees in their organization that already went through the process and ask them what they demanded and what they ultimately got as a remedy. Frequently employees go through the entire years-long process and get nothing execept a big attorney bill. The employees that do prevail often get far, far less in the end than they originally sought. Ask those prior complainants about the huge emotional toll on the workplace and co-workers while investigations and hearings are pending. Union reps may give the employee an att-a-boy for crusading against the agency but rarely are co-workers happy to be dragged into a conflict. The remedy doesn't always vindicate the costs, financial and emotional. The harsh reality is unfair doesn't mean illegal. There are good and bad managers just like good and bad employees, people need to be smart, only trust themselves, solicit a variety of opinions, and seriously think before filing a claim.
EEO Complaint
Farm Loan Manager USDA Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:54 AM
I filed a discrimination complaint against the Agency with EEO. It is true, you are taking on the whole agency, who by the way, is very one sided! That is where EEO comes in. They have the law on their side and when discrimination happens, it needs to be called for what it is! And true, the burden of proof was on me, but I had all the evidence I needed to prove that I had been discriminated against. It was not fun, but I have to say, I am glad I pursued it! I was promoted to the position I had applied for, as both EEO & the judge clearly saw I had been discriminated against. Why is it that the Agency has to intimidate their employees into being scared to file a complaint? It angers me that the Agency, who should be the example to the rest of the working world, discriminates on a regular basis. If you are not part of the “good ole boys club”, you are tough out of luck. And the most disgusting, sickening part is that it goes all the way up to Washington.
Read that Last Paragraph Again...
Yes I am, and So Can You Agency Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:13 PM
"...isn't just one issue or concern, but rather a problem in the ongoing working relationship between the employee and the supervisor. If the employee has made good faith efforts to improve the relationship, but to no avail, the best option MAY be to "vote with their feet," meaning to leave the organization, PARTICULARLY WHERE THE EMPLOYEE IS FEELING SO STRESSED about the situation that it is ADVERSELY AFFECTING THEIR HEALTH and/or other aspects of their life. My rationale is..." READ THAT LAST PART REAL CLOSE.
I was a Manager who filed against my Manager. I almost died. I left the service to another. I am alive. I am still here for my family. I WON!!!
Another way of putting it, "Go ahead and fight, but just remember, having the day in court and the money that may follow is really boring WHEN ONE IS IN THE GRAVE.
Part III - Comments
Construction Representative USACE Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:15 AM
I left the organization that I was in to be away from my supervisor who has discrimentated against me because of my sex. He has followed me to my new organization and tried to discredit me here also. I feel your article does not address a good option for the employee. Basically your article tells me to keep my mouth shut and take what ever the supervisor hands out. That does not always work if he does not communicate. Taking it to his supervisor did no good either. Everyone tries to just brush this supervisors actions under the carpet. Your article does not help if there is truly a valid complaint. I was hoping for some insight, but feel that you do not address the real problems of not just communication but no upper supervisor standing up and believing what employees state, the supervisor is always right as far as the upper management is concerned. That is not always correct and the employee should be given more encouragement and direction on how to correct a bad situation.
Re: Part III - Comments
Leader Private Sat Aug 9, 2008 10:02 PM
I agree with your statement. I was also in a similar situation where same people and behaviors followed. Sadly enough, the 'agency' does stick together when it comes to these situations & perception is definitely someone else's reality, especially when it's supported in numbers. You often hear "why don't you just leave"..."it's not that big of a deal get over it", or "the past is in the past" Get this: as long as you work for the agency, it's never really 'over' because they rarely fail to address the root of the issue ...PEOPLE. People who aren't held accountable for being the problem or ignoring it altogether and the resulting behaviors, some of which can't be changed in the long run by force. Though taking a stand is the right thing to do, most folks won't admit it because of FEAR. I refuse to make it easier for them by quickly leaving so that the issue can be erased. When your trust is betrayed and your career & happiness suffers, when is enough really enough?
Re: Part III - Comments
Analyst VA Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:24 AM
I agree as well. Employees need more assistance in knowing where to look for help when things like this happen. Is it the system? Is it management? Is it the Agency? I haven't suffer from discrimination because of my gender, but because of my ethnicity and age. When management brings his/her friends to the office, things definitely change. Even if you have more work experience, skills and education, and treat everyone with professionalism, if you are a minority and too young, you will not get same opportunities to advance in your career. I thought I was too sensitive about this topic because is impacting me emotionally, but when I see the same happening with 2 coworkers(minorities too), its definitely not just me. Then demographic studies show how a big % of young people are leaving the agency just after 3-5 years of service.
Because a better salary in priv. sector? not always true, but because of the unfair environment where they are. I am resigning in 2 weeks.
Re: Part III - Comments
Prof Small College Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:41 AM
Most situations of this nature is of the employee's own making. Some employees, such as you, forget you have to get along with the supervisor. The supervisor does not have to get along with you. Get over it.
Re: Part III - Comments
HR Team Leader private Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:41 AM
I don't agree. Leader and Analyst are in the right of filing complaints. No one can tell you that you have to get along with your supervisors and kiss them or change your gender or origins in order to do your job. All these laws and regulations were created to protect the employees from that type of environments. I have seen this a LOT in government where I worked before.
Good luck to both of you.
Think Before You Act
Electronics Technician USPS Mon Sep 1, 2008 5:51 AM
I have been an ET for 20 years, received merit pay increases for my work twice, several awards and never had a letter of warning or even a discussion. Then I transferred to the South. I was immediately subjected to racism . The basis for this was the belief that I and those like me should not progress beyond a certain level. Further, I was targeted to be "run off". Naturally I went to management . they labeled me a troublemaker and encouraged more attacks. After 8 years of abuse, I finally filed an EEO. Just the charge alone is enough to cause the colon of this type of "manager" to spaz. I didn't expect miracles and and my low expectations were rewarded. This then is my advice. FILE FILE FILE!. 1-Go to the EEOC website and read about the process.
2-DO NOT HIRE AN ATTORNEY. it's a waste of money and if you preserver the EEOC will offer one free. 3-hit them with Retaliation charges for the slightest act! 4-READ ABOUT THE NO FEAR ACT! The harassment has stopped. FIGHT BACK! DONT QUIT!
Re: Think Before You Act
Mail Carrier USPS Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:55 PM
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
This is my confirmation.
Lack of Promotion, Being held back!
Cartographic Technician USGS Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:47 AM
If a person has to prove he or she was discriminated against over the course of their entire career to the agency knowing the imbalance of power rests with management, how can one person get past that? Isn't that a barrier? How can anyone prove there's been a atmosphere of discriminaton over time when your the only person representing yourself and your a minority? One could only conclude their grade in series over time is their only chance to show they have been discriminated against.
Should I continue to pursue EEO case?
Registered Nurse VA Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:37 PM
I have been employed as a registered nurse for 10 years with the last miserable year being at the VA. I loved my job caring for our veterans, however have been shocked at the blatent discrimination and hostile work environment I have endured at this federal facility in the south. Due to my history of mental illness(controlled with medication), I requested the reasonable accommodation of not being "pulled" to work on other units. Although my job performance was praised and there were no performance issues, I was removed from nursing and given menial tasks to perform. For the past several weeks I have been in an office by myself with NO assignments! I filed an EEO complaint for discrimination based on mental disability in May 2008, and very little has happened. I hired an attorney and continue to wait on this process to begin. In the meantime, my depression has worsened, as I feel powerless in this situation. I feel just as strong that discrimination in any form should end.
Bend over and give in?
Manager County Organization Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:17 PM
Narcissism and grandiose behavior from your supervisor leaves little room for conversation. It usually turns out to be a monologue when the grandiose behavior takes over. A hostile work environment is not healthy for anyone. When supervision believes they can bully their way to the top - it's time for someone to put their foot down. Unfortunately, because of the root behavior of the bully, nearly everyone is in fear to say anything to HR. And hence, the bullish attitude continues. I understand what you are saying but I believe you should add an addendum as to how one goes about filing such a claimn to EEOC, their rights after they do so and even the time frame they can expect in the mitigation of the claim.
There is a no win situation with a narcissist, I don't care how nice you play in the sand box since their main goal is to make themselves look better than you - no matter what.
Can you afford it?
VHA
Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:57 AM
"When employees tell me that they are considering filing a complaint or grievance and request advice, I typically ask them if they are prepared to take on the whole agency, which I think is, in essence, what happens."
That's exactly what happens. The EEO, union, MSPB, you name are all pro-management. I've seen and been part of complaint processes and you'll have to remember your case could drag on and on in court. Agencies have lawyers but you have to pay out of pocket. Agencies will drag out cases for years upon years until they deplete your bank account and can no longer afford an attorney. I've seen people lose and some walking away with 6 figures...
Re: Can you afford it?
FAA
Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:43 AM
Re: Can you afford it?
GSA-until I requested a reasonable accomodation
Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:32 PM
Filing an EEO
Dept. of VA
Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:06 AM
I wholeheartedly disagree with the last statement of "voting with their feet." Employees who have a valid reason for filing an EEO, whether or not they will be perceived as a trouble-maker, should in fact, stay the course, and allow the process to take shape. There are too many occasions where the employee is seeking to converse with Managers and/or Management without being given the opportunity, until of course, the dreaded EEO is filed. Therefore, if Managers, etc., are unwilling to listen prior to the filing of the case, what assurance does the employee have that the Managers, etc., will come to the table with an open mind. Upon a successful victory, perhaps the Managers, etc., will rethink future decisions to ignore the employee. The employee should not be obligated to leave so that Managers, etc., have an easier road in not addressing the issue. Managers would effectively aid in the continuing problem.
Re: Filing an EEO
none
Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:14 PM
Why give up tenure without at least giving the grievance process a chance? If you do leave, you can always tell your next employer (truthfully) that you left because you felt like your career opportunities were limited in your old job.
Re: Filing an EEO
DoD
Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:03 PM
EEO/Grievance Advice
SSA
Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:22 AM
The author gives some good advice, about informal discussions and about the danger of miscommunication. However, when recommending whom to approach for support and advice on grievance issues, he fully exhibits his management-advisor background.
Most federal employees have union representation. And those so blessed also have a grievance procedure that can proceed to resolution before an impartial arbitrator-- because their union negotiated to have that system. Their union also has experience in dealing with a wide variety of EEO and grievance issues, and in doing so from the employees' side, not from management's. If a bargaining-unit employee has a potential EEO or grievance issue, the first person to talk to is your union representative.
Re: EEO/Grievance Advice
DoD
Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:10 AM
Re: EEO/Grievance Advice
of NTEU
Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:16 AM
Any route you take - union, eeo, etc - it will be YOU vs. The AGENCY as managers will circle the wagons around one of their own, regardless of that person's record of other complaints being filed. We never see managers demoted or let go, regardless of an easily discernible pattern of complaints (formal and informal) made against the bad manager. At most, they will attend "sensitivity training," but, since they are never wrong in the first place, the training never penetrates their Shield of Imperviousness.
Are you ready to take on the agency? You probably will be labeled a troublemaker. You may get this promotion (to get you out of the way), but it's still a ladder with only one rung.
FACTS
DHS
Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:48 AM
I think in a nutshell, what is really being said, is the system is designed for the employer and not the employee and by far user friendly for either party. Maybe the EEO & MSPB needs redesigned into a singular system and all EEO activities need removed to an independent agency.
Re: FACTS
DOT
Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:05 AM
EEO
EPA
Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:50 AM
As an employee who has filed and won an EEO complaint against an Agency, as well as a six figure monetary award, I wanted to let you know that no one can emphasize the physical and mental drain that occurs as a direct result of the case. It also takes two years out of your life, that can never be replaced. I always ask each person who approaches me about filing an EEO action, "are you willing to give up your quality of life for the next two years,for this case and how much do you have in savings?" EEO cases are costly in your time, the Agency's time and the EEO Administrative Judge's time, and attorney fees.
Although most folks are not willing to sit down with their supervisor and discuss the problem, they are willing to step outside their organization and consult with another person. Take full advantage of the Employee Assistance Program!
Re: EEO
USDA
Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:12 AM
Re: EEO
DoD
Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:35 PM
Are You Kidding ME!!!
DOD
Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:52 AM
This article implies that there are nearly zero cases where an EEO complaint, or grievance is necessary, or has any chance of being sucessful. The last paragraph tells the worker to vote with his feet & leave/resign. How could you publish something so anti-worker rights & protections. This is why we have laws & people who assist in their enforcement, such as unions & EEO. This reminds me of our local civilian personnelists. They tell employees that managment can do whatever they want. And, we keep on winning grievances. Will they ever learn??
Re: Are You Kidding ME!!!
DoD
Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:16 PM
Re: Are You Kidding ME!!!
VA
Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:01 PM
Vote with your feet
IRS
Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:56 AM
Although the article makes sense, the last paragraph is incomplete.
First, before you vote with your feet, make sure you have another job that is good. The job market stinks now and has not been good for a long time. Second, talk to the union steward if you are a union member. I am aware that the union represents everyone in the bargaining unit, but certain services are given to union members and not to non union people. I do not know the break in point.
Re: Vote with your feet
Dept. of VA
Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:44 AM
EEO/GRIEVANCE ADVICE
DOL
Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:23 AM
Sometimes the "Act" is so blantant that an employee should file an EEO or Grievance immediately. I prefer that an employee feel free to contact me because what most people forget in going through informal discussion with the person who committed the "Act" is that there are time limitations both under EEO and the CBA. As Federal employees we don't give up our rights because we are civil servants and advising people to "vote with their feet" is asking them to give up those rights.
EEO
DoD
Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:23 AM
I think the statement concerning voting with your feet is taken too lightly by the other commentors. The stress involved with staying the course in a complaint is tremendous. No amount of compensation, even if you do win, is worth the strain and possible permanent effect on your mental health. You have to decide if winning your case is really worth it. What will your life be like if you don't win? You need to do a reality check at some point. Nobody is saying not to file or put up with discrimination. Just know what you are getting into before you proceed.
Sad
DOD
Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:25 AM
It is likely true that the only practical option is to vote with your feet. That many managers are clearly, some very openly, acting in ways that are against the law and hurt people for seriously illegal reasons is beyond question. That they will get a way with it in most of the time is also beyond question. This from one who was a collateral duty EEO counselor for many years.
The steps outlined in this article will only work if you have well-meaning and competent managers and employees. For them, just getting everyone talking helps a LOT.
Most managers are probably are well-meaning. Competence is more in question. That many are neither is the sad story of government employment.
I call it, "Trading in my frustrations for a new set," as I know no job is perfect and once I have settled into a interesting new set of duties then the frustrations familiar to those duties will start poking their pointy little heads over the edge of my desk.
But it is all about survival.
The black eye may never heal
DOT
Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:31 AM
I have been in the position of having to decide if what I was about to do was going to be helpful, or if I was committing career suicide.
As a non-bargaining employee, the "choice", in my opinion, was really limited to filing an EEO complaint. Not so much as there was a violation of my EEO rights, although there was, but more so as needing an unbiased party to hear my case and see through the lies and deception the other side was telling.
Steve is correct in saying it is you against the entire organization. So you better have a bullet proof case for it is going to be very brutal and very ugly.
If you are as lucky as I was you will walk away from it all knowing who your true friends are. And maybe, just maybe, the black eye will fade away to a permenant shade of very light green. Just consider it a battle scare.
sometimes you just have to
USPS
Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:40 AM
I was told "get your ass back to your case" as I deposited mail on the throw-back case on my way to clock-off for the day. I finished my route first of 30 city carriers and was informed I had to go back out -- there were two sets of mail on the floor -- one curbside delivery -- the other all walking. I thought I should have first choice since not on OT list, and had walked all day; the 204-B said "I have been informed to walk your ass off." I was assaulted on a route I was instructed to go help one day -- and the same supervisor said it was my fault? I went to the police station after work to file charges, and the supervisor had told them that -- I had witnesses as to what had happened, and I don't understand how it was my fault. The customer was angry they got their mail late. I had a Special Achievement Award in my folder. I just refused to play the little "sexual" games the supervisor played. My husband doesn't curse at me -- and I am not going to allow a supervisor to.
sometimes you just have to
USPS
Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:45 AM
The outcome of my EEO was simply an admission of guilt and an apology. My fellow employees who witnessed the verbal assaults were punished on down the road. One of the witnesses could not take it anymore, and retired early. I retired early at 56 years 11 months to the day. The retaliation would never ease. I worked hard every single day. I out-worked most carriers simply because I am a hard worker and like to work hard. The supervisor is still there and has had several EEO's and grievances filed against him. The agency just doesn't get it.
another opportunity for resolution
EPA
Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:04 AM
Your comments and suggestions are worthy. You suggest that an individual facing a difficult conversation or circumstance speak to EEO and HR counselors and to the agency's Employee Assistance Program after speaking directly to their supervisor. Individuals who feel empowered and confident to do so may be able to follow this advice. Others may find that more difficult. Some agencies have an Alternative Dispute Resolution program outside of their EEO offices that can be of assistance. I want to add the recommendation that employees seek to identify such a program within their agency. The staff of such a program may be able to coach you and empower you to have the recommended difficult conversation with your boss or facilitate that difficult conversation with the both of you. They may also be able to help each individual involved to more clearly see the position and interests of the other individual.
EEO Complaints
GSA
Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:32 AM
I successfully filed and won two separate EEO cases an a previous agency, filed one non EEO complaint with another and won. Have considered filing twice since being at GSA and decided that my complaints would not be accepted even on its merits. The only successful complaints at GSA are those filed by minorities, regardless of age or gender. The suggestion to speak with a supervisor is ridiculous since their actions are often the reason a complaint is contemplated. Although the EAP is an option, they really cannot "fix" the problem, but they will listen. In my case, the filing was to stop the action..not just for me but others. It worked. There should be an Ombudsperson (neutral) to be available to hear both sides and then recommend either filing the official complaint/working out a solution. Alternate Dispute Resolution seems like a good idea, but they are volunteers and most are reluctant to trust a co-worker with their deepest concerns with no guarantee of privacy.
Re: EEO Complaints
GSA-until I requested a reasonable accomodation
Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:17 PM
Surely you gest. I am an AfricanAmerican Disabled Female that HAD a 23 year squeaky clean work record UNTIL I requested a reasonable accommodation. After my request I was reprimanded, suspended and terminated within a year.
Perception
DoD
Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:49 AM
Problem with the Writers comments is putting a lot of effort into resolving problems with a supervisor and his Chain of Command, that created the problem(s) in the first place. If you wait and try to use "the System" you will find that your door to filing a "for third party review process" will be closed due to being untimely. And if you think "They" don't know this, you really have a problem. You need to File the complaint as soon as you think or know that something is amist. You can always withdraw it. In my 30 plus years of service, I have found very few manager that have intergrity when owning up to be wrong. The whole chain that circles the wagons to protect the bad. Question for all out there. How many of you know of a manager being removed from service by his Chain of Command without the intervention of a Third Party Review?
EEO VS CIVIL RIGHTS
BUREAU OF PRISONS
Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:07 PM
sir, i've read your commentary and i feel that it stinks. this agency has long been a good ol' boy system. racism continues to strieve high in this day and time. yes, racism, where the eeo code doesn't matter. people just deal with these issues because they need a job. people like myself who have been blackballed in the system continue to strive for equeal rights and equal justice. therefore, why should i walk away from my present job and began at the bottom? you make no sense and should consider another career.
EEO and the end result
CIS
Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:43 PM
The problem with some EEOs filed is truly knowing the end result. When you have an employee who filed an EEO and claims he/she was awarded $500.00 and their job back as the end result, it only gets other people more excited about filing. The fact is, there was not $500.00 awarded to the individual. If people are truly honest about what truly happened after a grievence or EEO was filed, more people would think twice. It is the blow-hards that get things stired up.
Stay and Fight
Retired
Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:46 PM
In response to the suggestion to voting with his/her feet, that is not always possible. A person may have reached an age or have physical disabilities that make finding another job or possibly moving to another area extremely difficult. Sometimes, the only viable options are to accept the discrimination and walk away or retire defeated, or to stay and fight. My lawyers and I won an EEO case Federal court jury verdict and court judgment after a six year fight. My case went through the agency processes, the EEOC, and finally to Federal court. It was worth the fight and my victory was sweet and a total vindication. The author of the article makes many good points, but he apparently does not recognize that agency management sometimes commits illegal discrimination and that employees have legal rights to oppose such discrimination. What good are the EEO laws and regulations if management ignores them and employees cannot effectively use those processes?
EEO???
USMC
Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:47 PM
I have worked at this command for some time.
I have seen and heard it all.
A lady setting in the cube next to me. She had her supervisor in her office and she was explaining what she needed and required.
The supervisor did not pay any attention to her. WHen she filed an EEO complain the supervisor was telling everyone that she never talked and told him.
We all knew that he was lieing
but the rvisor thought he did not have to comply with the law.
The command is still protecting him (He is one of the good old boys). Instead of the command making him go back to get more supervisor training he is continuing to make everyones lives terrible.
The Command and EEO are in bed together and this could end the command because so many people heard this supervisor.
Again - EEO does nothing.
The individual's life is terrible and all the co-workers know what is going on.
Voted with my feet
AF
Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:33 PM
I had been with the federal government for 8 years (I'm in my 50s) and unfortunately got a promotion to work for a female Colonel in the AF. Before going to work for her, I had had two performance awards the year before as well as previous years. I went to work for this lady and she yelled and screamed at both myself and the Supt. I'd never seen anything like that in my life. Three months on the job, she put me on a PIP. My big sin was that I required some learning time before I could hit the floor running. The Union told me to file an EEO Complaint. She was such an abusive person that even though I knew she was wrong in how she treated me; I really didn't think I could emotionally handle going through an EEO Complaint. I quit my job (there were no other jobs available at this small AFB in NM). Was able to get unemployment. But when she found out, she demanded that Personnel file against my getting unemployment. I lost unemp rights & have to pay back $2600 somehow.
Re: Voted with my feet
DOD
Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:59 PM
Re: Voted with my feet
Now DOD
Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:20 AM
Look before you leap
DIA
Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:54 PM
I think Steve made many good points, but I his remark about "taking on the whole agency" is worth commenting on. Also, I agree that leaving the agency and/or office is the least painful solution, but why not avoid it in the first place? All agencies/departments are not identical. Potential employees should closely study the culture of their intended agency/department before they sign on the dotted line. DOD for example, is a male-dominated environment where orders are given, not questioned, and the mission trumps the employees needs/wants every time. It's a no-win situation, so even if a potential employee likes the work, can they live with that kind of rigidity? That person might be more comfortable working for the State Dept, as it is in my experience much more sensitive to their employee's needs. I think it comes down to the individual and what they are willing to endure. if you want a smooth career, then do your homework. If not, be prepared for a potentially very bumpy ride.
Re: Look before you leap
DoD
Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:11 AM
EEO Complaints
Dept. of VA
Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:46 AM
ALWAYS GET A LAWYER if, of course, you have the resources. Even though you will be viewed as a problem upon filing the EEO, it is worth it to let Managers know that "you are not afraid." Is anyone remembering that GOD sees it all and things DO work out for the best. I have seen Managers suddenly retire and others be "relocated" after filing a successful EEO claim. Yes, sometimes it does work, particularly when Management knows their dirt will be uncovered.
EAP
BLM
Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:30 PM
Your statement that EAP counselors have no ties to the agency? Are they not paid by the agency? Do they not have an unwritten obligation to report to the agency? It is difficult to see how the agency does not still have the advantage?
Voted With My Feet, Sorry Taxpayer
Formerly Department of Labor
Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:06 PM
When a productive and competent federal employee refuses to tolerate inhumane and illegal conditions, the taxpayer loses. Give them no other choice but to resign, and they will. What is truly unfortunate is that those that are left are nothing but yes-men and women who will do anything to feed their families -- often to the detriment of the people they are supposed to serve in their public service roles.
What I experienced was beyond words. What those that remain are experiencing is beyond words. I still get calls from one employee concerned about a coworker who makes serious safety threats. It's sad that this guy thinks that I'm able or willing to do something to fix a place I fled in fear a year ago. I couldn't do anything as a manager then -- I certainly can't do anything now. EEO is broken; management is broken. The laws no longer work, and we've done nothing to stand up for civil servants' rights.
Saga of the UN-proven Charge
GSA-until I requested a reasonable accomodation
Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:57 PM
I filed a petition for review of a removal charge that the MSPB AJ collectively wrote in her initial decision was not proven by the Agency, but she mitigated the removal of the unproven charge to a 90-day suspension. I filed a petition for review of the 90-day suspension. I returned to work and remained for over a year and a half without incident. Although the Board on petition for review also agreed with the AJ's initial decision (charge not proven) over-turned the AJ's 90-day suspension and upheld the agency's unproven charge and removed me. Later, the OWCP approved an emotional claim with a doctors letter that demonstrated causal connection between my injury, the environment and the (unproven) charge. I provided the Board with this information and requested a restoration hearing. The AJ sent out his order instructing me to prove the Board had jurisdiction. I proved that the Board had jurisdiction and the AJ set a merit hearing date. When that hearing date had to be canceled, he rescheduled the merit hearing date, and another merit hearing date. Suddenly the AJ took a giant step backwards and stated that he could not find that the Board had jurisdiction in my appeal that he earlier found to have merit. AJ said that he could understand what the doctor said about the causal connection between my injury and the [un]proven charge, but since the 1st AJ said she could not find that my [un]proven charged actions were caused by my medical condition he would stick with that, over-ruling the official medical diagnosis for a legal diagnosis of his peer.
Please do not try to understand this - just roll with the flow....
EEO
USPS
Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:58 AM
I agree caution should be used in the filing of an EEO. It is not a remedy for all disagreements in the workplace. The process is long and frustrating. Even if the complainant receives a favorable decision from the EEO Administrative Judge who hears the appeal, the agency does not have to honor the decision. By law, the agency is permitted to render a final agency decision modifying or even ignoring the judge's written decision. If the complainant does not agree with the final decision notice, then appeal rights to the EEOC or to file a civil action in the U.S. District Court are extended. The Federal Government modifies very few decisions favorable to the agency, but does modify the majority of initial decisions not to its liking. In the my opinion, this is a truly absurd situation that only favors the employer, not the complainant or the EEO Administrative Judge.
Be Smart
Civ Agency
Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:26 PM
Employees thinking about filing should talk to other employees in their organization that already went through the process and ask them what they demanded and what they ultimately got as a remedy. Frequently employees go through the entire years-long process and get nothing execept a big attorney bill. The employees that do prevail often get far, far less in the end than they originally sought. Ask those prior complainants about the huge emotional toll on the workplace and co-workers while investigations and hearings are pending. Union reps may give the employee an att-a-boy for crusading against the agency but rarely are co-workers happy to be dragged into a conflict. The remedy doesn't always vindicate the costs, financial and emotional. The harsh reality is unfair doesn't mean illegal. There are good and bad managers just like good and bad employees, people need to be smart, only trust themselves, solicit a variety of opinions, and seriously think before filing a claim.
EEO Complaint
USDA
Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:54 AM
I filed a discrimination complaint against the Agency with EEO. It is true, you are taking on the whole agency, who by the way, is very one sided! That is where EEO comes in. They have the law on their side and when discrimination happens, it needs to be called for what it is! And true, the burden of proof was on me, but I had all the evidence I needed to prove that I had been discriminated against. It was not fun, but I have to say, I am glad I pursued it! I was promoted to the position I had applied for, as both EEO & the judge clearly saw I had been discriminated against. Why is it that the Agency has to intimidate their employees into being scared to file a complaint? It angers me that the Agency, who should be the example to the rest of the working world, discriminates on a regular basis. If you are not part of the “good ole boys club”, you are tough out of luck. And the most disgusting, sickening part is that it goes all the way up to Washington.
Read that Last Paragraph Again...
Agency
Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:13 PM
"...isn't just one issue or concern, but rather a problem in the ongoing working relationship between the employee and the supervisor. If the employee has made good faith efforts to improve the relationship, but to no avail, the best option MAY be to "vote with their feet," meaning to leave the organization, PARTICULARLY WHERE THE EMPLOYEE IS FEELING SO STRESSED about the situation that it is ADVERSELY AFFECTING THEIR HEALTH and/or other aspects of their life. My rationale is..." READ THAT LAST PART REAL CLOSE.
I was a Manager who filed against my Manager. I almost died. I left the service to another. I am alive. I am still here for my family. I WON!!!
Another way of putting it, "Go ahead and fight, but just remember, having the day in court and the money that may follow is really boring WHEN ONE IS IN THE GRAVE.
Part III - Comments
USACE
Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:15 AM
I left the organization that I was in to be away from my supervisor who has discrimentated against me because of my sex. He has followed me to my new organization and tried to discredit me here also. I feel your article does not address a good option for the employee. Basically your article tells me to keep my mouth shut and take what ever the supervisor hands out. That does not always work if he does not communicate. Taking it to his supervisor did no good either. Everyone tries to just brush this supervisors actions under the carpet. Your article does not help if there is truly a valid complaint. I was hoping for some insight, but feel that you do not address the real problems of not just communication but no upper supervisor standing up and believing what employees state, the supervisor is always right as far as the upper management is concerned. That is not always correct and the employee should be given more encouragement and direction on how to correct a bad situation.
Re: Part III - Comments
Private
Sat Aug 9, 2008 10:02 PM
Re: Part III - Comments
VA
Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:24 AM
Because a better salary in priv. sector? not always true, but because of the unfair environment where they are. I am resigning in 2 weeks.
Re: Part III - Comments
Small College
Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:41 AM
Re: Part III - Comments
private
Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:41 AM
Good luck to both of you.
Think Before You Act
USPS
Mon Sep 1, 2008 5:51 AM
I have been an ET for 20 years, received merit pay increases for my work twice, several awards and never had a letter of warning or even a discussion. Then I transferred to the South. I was immediately subjected to racism . The basis for this was the belief that I and those like me should not progress beyond a certain level. Further, I was targeted to be "run off". Naturally I went to management . they labeled me a troublemaker and encouraged more attacks. After 8 years of abuse, I finally filed an EEO. Just the charge alone is enough to cause the colon of this type of "manager" to spaz. I didn't expect miracles and and my low expectations were rewarded. This then is my advice. FILE FILE FILE!. 1-Go to the EEOC website and read about the process.
2-DO NOT HIRE AN ATTORNEY. it's a waste of money and if you preserver the EEOC will offer one free. 3-hit them with Retaliation charges for the slightest act! 4-READ ABOUT THE NO FEAR ACT! The harassment has stopped. FIGHT BACK! DONT QUIT!
Re: Think Before You Act
USPS
Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:55 PM
This is my confirmation.
Lack of Promotion, Being held back!
USGS
Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:47 AM
If a person has to prove he or she was discriminated against over the course of their entire career to the agency knowing the imbalance of power rests with management, how can one person get past that? Isn't that a barrier? How can anyone prove there's been a atmosphere of discriminaton over time when your the only person representing yourself and your a minority? One could only conclude their grade in series over time is their only chance to show they have been discriminated against.
Should I continue to pursue EEO case?
VA
Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:37 PM
I have been employed as a registered nurse for 10 years with the last miserable year being at the VA. I loved my job caring for our veterans, however have been shocked at the blatent discrimination and hostile work environment I have endured at this federal facility in the south. Due to my history of mental illness(controlled with medication), I requested the reasonable accommodation of not being "pulled" to work on other units. Although my job performance was praised and there were no performance issues, I was removed from nursing and given menial tasks to perform. For the past several weeks I have been in an office by myself with NO assignments! I filed an EEO complaint for discrimination based on mental disability in May 2008, and very little has happened. I hired an attorney and continue to wait on this process to begin. In the meantime, my depression has worsened, as I feel powerless in this situation. I feel just as strong that discrimination in any form should end.
Bend over and give in?
County Organization
Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:17 PM
Narcissism and grandiose behavior from your supervisor leaves little room for conversation. It usually turns out to be a monologue when the grandiose behavior takes over. A hostile work environment is not healthy for anyone. When supervision believes they can bully their way to the top - it's time for someone to put their foot down. Unfortunately, because of the root behavior of the bully, nearly everyone is in fear to say anything to HR. And hence, the bullish attitude continues. I understand what you are saying but I believe you should add an addendum as to how one goes about filing such a claimn to EEOC, their rights after they do so and even the time frame they can expect in the mitigation of the claim.
There is a no win situation with a narcissist, I don't care how nice you play in the sand box since their main goal is to make themselves look better than you - no matter what.