Rafe Hollister Distiller and Singer Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:23 AM
Where is the mention of service, sacrifice and humility?
Re: All Take and No Give
Government grunt SSA Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:48 PM
Yeah, Jason, you can definitely negotiate your salary as a federal employee. Here's how it goes.
Selecting official: "This job is a GS-9 position."
You: "OK."
That's the extent to which you can "negotiate" most federal jobs.
Doesn't anyone even check these articles before they get published.
Re: All Take and No Give
General Engineer DOT Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:19 AM
Government Grunt of SSA. You're not correct. Albeit you cannot get a higher grade then what is called out in the announcement, but you can certainly ask for a higher step and I've successfully done that twice.
Negotiating?
Investigator DOJ Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:43 PM
I began my career with DHS. When I was offered the job I felt that my experience qualified me at the higher pay grade in the announcement. I tried to negotiate and they told me they did not negotiate and if did not like the offer I could decline the job re-apply at the next announcement.
Re: Negotiating?
Federal Career Intern HUD Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:44 PM
I had the same experience even though I was also offered a GS-9/11/12 position with HUD, DHS would not budge from their GS-9 Step 1 position. Of course that was better than the Navy offer of GS-7 even though I had a Master of Science in a qualifying field!
The nice thing is, I'm happy in HUD and I've just been picked up as a Presidential Management Fellow thanks to my second masters degree. Now my full potential is GS-13 but some agencies wanted to "offer" me GS-9 all over again. Go figure!
Re: Negotiating?
Retired Manager After 40 Years Service DoC Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:15 PM
Another greatly over-simplified bad "advice" article on federal employment. What actually happens is your application will be sifted and sorted and many rejected in an almost mechanical procedure by a personnel specialist. Some applications will emerge with veterans preference.
Next, the surviving applications will be forwarded to an evaluation committee that will score and rank applications against the criteria in the job announcement. The selecting official (the hire's new boss) will not be on this committee.
The committee will forward the top 3 applicants, based on scores, to the selecting official. Special approval must be obtained before the selecting official can hire a non-veteran over an equally qualified veteran.
The selecting official may conduct interviews for those that haven't found other jobs in the interim (the process may take a few weeks to several months) and select one, or reject all and re-advertise the job.
There is no flexibility for any "negotiating".
Career Bureaucrats
Diversity Manager DOL Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:42 PM
I noticed that accountability, and creativity aren't on anyone's radar
KSA Dr.
FedUp No Such Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:32 AM
If this is Jason's advice I think I would avoid following his KSA advice as well! What a pollyanna world he must be living,
Above article
HR Specialist OPM Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:07 AM
I don't know what alternative universe Mr. Kay inhabits, but it certainly isn't this one. For applicants who are seeking their first Federal "white collar" position, there is very little flexibility on the issue of being able to negotiate starting pay (and none at all for "blue collar" jobs). While what are referred to as "superior qualifications appointments" can be a basis for offering starting salaries above the "step one" entry rate for the GS grade of the position concerned, these are highly atypical and must meet stringent regulatory threshold requirements; they are by no means a "slam dunk." While stressing initiative is good, the option of pursuing "learning" opportunities is misleading in giving the impression that agencies are willing to spend freely on employee development. Unlike the private sector, the Feds are quite parsimonious in this regard, with most devoting at most 1-2 % of their S&E budgets to this function, which tends to go first in any funding reductions.
Re: Above article
Transportation Industry Analyst DOT Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:56 AM
I think HR specialist is being too cautious. First, I was hired using a superior qualifications appointment. If I didn't ask, I wouldn't have been offered anything more thana step 1 appointment. I was also able to get into my agency's leadership development program two years after I started with the government. The opportunities are there, but have to ask first. There's no point in diminishing people's expectations before they even ask.
Government employment
HR Spec DOE Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:54 AM
This is not good advise. The reality is that if, before even being sworn into their first government positions, selectees start "negotiating" (read: demanding) for more money, they could well be dealing with managers who (a) would not have been able to broach the subject when they started in civil service, and (b) may be thrilled to have the new hires coming in, and feel that the new hires should be equally thrilled, and honored, to have a government job. So they want to get greedy? I can see a couple of outsomes: offers being withdrawn, if the person hasn't started yet. Or, if they have, do the words "probationary removal" ring a bell?
Negotiating
HR USDA Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:17 AM
Jason needs to do his homework better on competitive service. Salary negioting for outside "all sources" employees (outside of NSPS) doesn't happen, outside of the very rare superior qualification. Internal applicants against excluding NSPS is set by the CFR.
No Colonel Left Behind
HR (labor) USAF Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:11 AM
The only negotiation that goes on when filling higher level civilian positions in the Air Force is conducted before the job is announced. And it consists of how can these positions be tailored so they can be filled with retiring senior officers to supplement their military retired pay.
The only issue is whether the retiring officers write the position descriptions themselves and set the pay or whether they have current uniformed buddies do it for them.
The odor associated with the process is becoming noticable.
Inaccurate Information
HR Specialist DOE Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:51 PM
Mr. Kay,
You should have done your research before writing this article. You are giving individuals outside of the Federal Service false hope when it comes to negotiating salary. First and foremost, not everyone nor every position is eligible for negotiating (official HR term Advanced-In-Hire/Superior Qualifications. Only individuals outside of the Federal sector can negotiate salary. Second, some Agencies have a stringent requirements on the type of positions that are elgibile for Superior Quals, most are senior level position and hard to fill positions. Third, the request must go through an approval process and the selectee is required to provide current documentation of salary; some agencies require a letter of verification or contact your current/recent employer to verify the salary info is accurate.
In conclusion your statement, "...a government job, just like a private sector job" is false-it is different, it's actually a process.
Realism
HR Specialist VA Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:30 PM
There are elements of truth in all these responses, contradictory as they may appear. As a rule, a new hire to the Govt, which I think is what Mr Kay is addressing, does not have the option of "negotiating" a salary, i.e. step, once the grade is set. The exceptions to the rule are as the other HR Specialists have stated. The TI Analyst also is right in pointing out that some things need to be requested or brought up. However, I disagree that "you shouldn't diminish people's expectations before they ask". Some expectations are not realistic and, if not addressed, will lead to disappointment down the line - as is reflected so often by responders to this site. More important than KSA's are your own expectations; you have to accept Govt as an institution in its own right, with its own quirks & ways of doing things - not as a defective version of the private sector world of which you were previously a part.
Hiring Practices & Pay
Navy PAO United States Navy Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:58 AM
Under NSPS if you are a current federal employee you can only get a 5% increase if you take a new federal job. As a new hire to federal service in the NSPS system, you can negotiate within the salary range of the pay band and the word is out. Prospective employees are trying to negotiate the top of the pay band which defeats the incentive of the pay for performance system, so our management has been offering 'hiring bonuses' of several thousand dollars instead of hiring at the top of the pay band - with the prospect of 'earning' a higher salary through the NSPS process.
Negotiating
IT Professional HHS Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:09 PM
My experience with negotiating is, it depends. It depends on the agency climate, and budget availability. Unless it's a "laddered" position, specific grade is set in stone. An applicant can often negotiate a step, often not more than Step 6, but he/she must produce proof of current salary level.
There are different ways
Former Staffing Specialist for 20 years, Now Union Steward DOD Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:09 PM
Over 22 years as a staffing specialist, I worked in 12 separate CPO/HRO offices for DOD, Army, Navy, Marines, DODDS, AAA, INSCOM, DIA worldwide and every one is different because every manager who hires an employee is different. There are lots of policy statements in all agencies, and there are lots of managers who request and give exceptions. Always ask for a better salary than offered. Make sure the refusal is based on a real requirement or restriction, otherwise it's just an exercise of "whim policy" in action. Realize that your background must have approx 5X the "worth" of the higher salary to make it through the comptroller's screening and okay.
All Take and No Give
Distiller and Singer
Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:23 AM
Where is the mention of service, sacrifice and humility?
Re: All Take and No Give
SSA
Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:48 PM
Selecting official: "This job is a GS-9 position."
You: "OK."
That's the extent to which you can "negotiate" most federal jobs.
Doesn't anyone even check these articles before they get published.
Re: All Take and No Give
DOT
Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:19 AM
Negotiating?
DOJ
Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:43 PM
I began my career with DHS. When I was offered the job I felt that my experience qualified me at the higher pay grade in the announcement. I tried to negotiate and they told me they did not negotiate and if did not like the offer I could decline the job re-apply at the next announcement.
Re: Negotiating?
HUD
Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:44 PM
The nice thing is, I'm happy in HUD and I've just been picked up as a Presidential Management Fellow thanks to my second masters degree. Now my full potential is GS-13 but some agencies wanted to "offer" me GS-9 all over again. Go figure!
Re: Negotiating?
DoC
Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:15 PM
Next, the surviving applications will be forwarded to an evaluation committee that will score and rank applications against the criteria in the job announcement. The selecting official (the hire's new boss) will not be on this committee.
The committee will forward the top 3 applicants, based on scores, to the selecting official. Special approval must be obtained before the selecting official can hire a non-veteran over an equally qualified veteran.
The selecting official may conduct interviews for those that haven't found other jobs in the interim (the process may take a few weeks to several months) and select one, or reject all and re-advertise the job.
There is no flexibility for any "negotiating".
Career Bureaucrats
DOL
Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:42 PM
I noticed that accountability, and creativity aren't on anyone's radar
KSA Dr.
No Such
Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:32 AM
If this is Jason's advice I think I would avoid following his KSA advice as well! What a pollyanna world he must be living,
Above article
OPM
Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:07 AM
I don't know what alternative universe Mr. Kay inhabits, but it certainly isn't this one. For applicants who are seeking their first Federal "white collar" position, there is very little flexibility on the issue of being able to negotiate starting pay (and none at all for "blue collar" jobs). While what are referred to as "superior qualifications appointments" can be a basis for offering starting salaries above the "step one" entry rate for the GS grade of the position concerned, these are highly atypical and must meet stringent regulatory threshold requirements; they are by no means a "slam dunk." While stressing initiative is good, the option of pursuing "learning" opportunities is misleading in giving the impression that agencies are willing to spend freely on employee development. Unlike the private sector, the Feds are quite parsimonious in this regard, with most devoting at most 1-2 % of their S&E budgets to this function, which tends to go first in any funding reductions.
Re: Above article
DOT
Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:56 AM
Government employment
DOE
Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:54 AM
This is not good advise. The reality is that if, before even being sworn into their first government positions, selectees start "negotiating" (read: demanding) for more money, they could well be dealing with managers who (a) would not have been able to broach the subject when they started in civil service, and (b) may be thrilled to have the new hires coming in, and feel that the new hires should be equally thrilled, and honored, to have a government job. So they want to get greedy? I can see a couple of outsomes: offers being withdrawn, if the person hasn't started yet. Or, if they have, do the words "probationary removal" ring a bell?
Negotiating
USDA
Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:17 AM
Jason needs to do his homework better on competitive service. Salary negioting for outside "all sources" employees (outside of NSPS) doesn't happen, outside of the very rare superior qualification. Internal applicants against excluding NSPS is set by the CFR.
No Colonel Left Behind
USAF
Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:11 AM
The only negotiation that goes on when filling higher level civilian positions in the Air Force is conducted before the job is announced. And it consists of how can these positions be tailored so they can be filled with retiring senior officers to supplement their military retired pay.
The only issue is whether the retiring officers write the position descriptions themselves and set the pay or whether they have current uniformed buddies do it for them.
The odor associated with the process is becoming noticable.
Inaccurate Information
DOE
Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:51 PM
Mr. Kay,
You should have done your research before writing this article. You are giving individuals outside of the Federal Service false hope when it comes to negotiating salary. First and foremost, not everyone nor every position is eligible for negotiating (official HR term Advanced-In-Hire/Superior Qualifications. Only individuals outside of the Federal sector can negotiate salary. Second, some Agencies have a stringent requirements on the type of positions that are elgibile for Superior Quals, most are senior level position and hard to fill positions. Third, the request must go through an approval process and the selectee is required to provide current documentation of salary; some agencies require a letter of verification or contact your current/recent employer to verify the salary info is accurate.
In conclusion your statement, "...a government job, just like a private sector job" is false-it is different, it's actually a process.
Realism
VA
Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:30 PM
There are elements of truth in all these responses, contradictory as they may appear. As a rule, a new hire to the Govt, which I think is what Mr Kay is addressing, does not have the option of "negotiating" a salary, i.e. step, once the grade is set. The exceptions to the rule are as the other HR Specialists have stated. The TI Analyst also is right in pointing out that some things need to be requested or brought up. However, I disagree that "you shouldn't diminish people's expectations before they ask". Some expectations are not realistic and, if not addressed, will lead to disappointment down the line - as is reflected so often by responders to this site. More important than KSA's are your own expectations; you have to accept Govt as an institution in its own right, with its own quirks & ways of doing things - not as a defective version of the private sector world of which you were previously a part.
Hiring Practices & Pay
United States Navy
Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:58 AM
Under NSPS if you are a current federal employee you can only get a 5% increase if you take a new federal job. As a new hire to federal service in the NSPS system, you can negotiate within the salary range of the pay band and the word is out. Prospective employees are trying to negotiate the top of the pay band which defeats the incentive of the pay for performance system, so our management has been offering 'hiring bonuses' of several thousand dollars instead of hiring at the top of the pay band - with the prospect of 'earning' a higher salary through the NSPS process.
Negotiating
HHS
Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:09 PM
My experience with negotiating is, it depends. It depends on the agency climate, and budget availability. Unless it's a "laddered" position, specific grade is set in stone. An applicant can often negotiate a step, often not more than Step 6, but he/she must produce proof of current salary level.
There are different ways
DOD
Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:09 PM
Over 22 years as a staffing specialist, I worked in 12 separate CPO/HRO offices for DOD, Army, Navy, Marines, DODDS, AAA, INSCOM, DIA worldwide and every one is different because every manager who hires an employee is different. There are lots of policy statements in all agencies, and there are lots of managers who request and give exceptions. Always ask for a better salary than offered. Make sure the refusal is based on a real requirement or restriction, otherwise it's just an exercise of "whim policy" in action. Realize that your background must have approx 5X the "worth" of the higher salary to make it through the comptroller's screening and okay.