The Government is a piece of work, they get away with anything that they want to, and there is little that an employee can do. I filed an age discrimination case and it took them 4 years and a deposition to tell me that I didn't have a case. I cannot believe what the Government is allowed to get away with. President Bush said he would not allow discrimination cases to be swept under the rug, but he has not a clue - there is no way with terrorist activity and running for election that he would care what happens to a low graded employee in any agency.
Re: Collier v. U.S.
Contracting Officer EPA Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:39 AM
If you don't like it you're more than welcome to seek employment in the private sector. I heard malcontents are in demand!
Re: Collier v. U.S.
Old HR Guy VA Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:26 AM
Wrong answer, Contracting Officer. You need to check out the cost of employee turnover, legal activity like Mr. Collier's, internal dysfunctional consequences of low morale, etc when employees are dissed. Note especially that is an HR Assistant who made that comment; not a good sign for ARS. "If you don't like it, hit the highway" isn't a chapter title in any Management or Leadership textbook I 've ever seen. Matter of fact, we just fired a guy from our shop who thought the same way; he didn't have the common sense to realize the real cost to his team or his agency. Time for a paradigm shift!
Re: Collier v. U.S.
Contracting Officer EPA Tue Aug 31, 2004 12:44 PM
Old HR Guy: It breaks my heart when a federal employee is allegedly "dissed" by Uncle Sam. You're missing my point. I have old college buddies employed in the private sector that would give an arm for 26 annual days a year; AWS; FSA; steady health bennies; pension plus TSP; etc, etc... Every day I feel honored and grateful to be a federal employee. Yes, there are some perceived sleights and indignities along the way, but I've been on the other side and I know I've got a good thing going. You stick w/the paradigm mumbo jumbo; I'll stick w/common sense and indebtedness to an excellent employer.
Re: Collier v. U.S.
Old HR Guy VA Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:16 PM
It's just not that easy, Contracting Officer. Pay and benefits are contributing factors but current literature has said emphatically for some time now that pay & benefits are not the whole picture. While everyone should rightfully applaud your excellent working conditions (I certainly do), there are lots of places out there where, for example, Mr. Collier's unhappy experience tells us there is still a body of supervisors who need to think about the benefits of shifting from the Old School negative/dictatorial supervisory role to the more current/positive team building role.
In a happier place like yours Mr. Collier would not have to hire an attorney to seek $40-$50K in pay and benefits and then have to fork over $50K to $100K in attorney's fees because his supervisor would have taken care of business, researched the options, and resolved any remuneration questions right up front.
Happily, it appears your supervisor is already in that team building positive mode, and that's great. He's already shifted & you are the beneficiary, or so it appears in your positive comments. Let's hope more of our supervisors get on that bandwagon; it's almost always better to team build than slam dunk a person who apparently in good faith (blissful ignorance?) works for two years in a higher graded position at his same rate of pay.
Of course, in this case we don't know what turned senior management against Collier, he might be Jack the Ripper fully deserving of these results, but it might also be interesting to be a fly on the wall to see when the next employee in that work group willingly chooses to help management by following in Collier's footsteps.... That may not be very likely, even though the PD in question may make that option enforceable on a temporary basis.
After all, the "appointment" knife cuts both ways. Since there is no enforceable employment contract, folks will normally go along only until they have a better option, and everyone knows USAJOBs has about a million options! I think we agree that it is better to treat the staff with the appreciation and concern they deserve as an important (most important?) asset to the organization, as your boss apparently does, and then all's well that ends well.
Re: Collier v. U.S.
Contracting Officer EPA Wed Sep 1, 2004 7:23 AM
It has nothing to do w/my supervisor. I’ve toiled under some real hammer heads over the years. I’m the type that will make lemonade out of lemons…this too shall pass, etc. I know that if I do my job and stay out of trouble (and the rumor mill), I’ll get rewarded with a pay check and steady employment.
I’ve seen many instances of private sector employees being shown the door in a reorganization and finding themselves laboring away at a 7-11 (or equivalent minimum wage position) in order to provide for their family. With Uncle Sam, although there are no guarantees, I can be quite certain that I’m going to finish my career unimpeded and be able to retire at age 55…..55!!!
Finally, I too have served as an acting supervisor, albeit not for 24 months. To me, this was a learning experience and resume material to further my ambitions. And yes, I did not get the permanent promotion. I wasn’t too happy about it, but you just press on. No need to make a federal case out of it!
No Back Pay, No Employment Contract, No Promotion
MARINE INFORMATION SPECIALIST USCG, San Juan, PR Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:50 AM
The Supervisor of Mr. Stanton Collier should have notified the Personnel Dept and get the scope on a possible differential pay adjustment, and past on the results to member. It is the Supervisor's responsibility to lookout for their people. Apparently, this was not the case.
Re: No Back Pay, No Employment Contract, No Promotion
Old HR Guy VA Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:54 AM
Right on, USCG. Where was the line supervisor or HR office in support of the extended detail when HR regs provide for a temporary promotion? The cost of the legal action 'way outspent the cost of the difference between GS-14 & 15 for 24 months, & that does not even speak to the supervisory failure to take care of his/her troops.
But note, too, there is some underlying conflict here: (1) Mr. Collier did the job for two years but was not selected to fill the job permanently; (2) then had to file a formal protest/appeal for the "back pay"; and finally, Mr. Collier is not without some responsibility for the debacle because (3) he didn't do his homework and/or received bad legal advice since the Back Pay Act is available on Internet and he could have personally reviewed the law itself & (in addition) a variety of case law precedents to determine its application in his case. The Equal Pay Act may have been a better avenue, but the Bottom Line: Mr. Collier's light at the end of the tunnel was a freight train. Time to find a new home; the odds are that from a managerial perspective he may not be the most popular employee in the office right now. He's just not the usual cowering subordinate all too many of our federal supervisors love to have in their stables. Clearly "Employer of Choice" is still a light year away in that shop!
No Back Pay, No Employment Contract, No Promotion
Management Support USDOL/EBSA Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:52 AM
Mr. Stanton Collier did you not remember those three simple words at the end of every Federal Employees PD? They are "Duties as Assigned". 'Nuff said.
Re: No Back Pay, No Employment Contract, No Promotion
HR Spc DOI Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:18 AM
"Other duties as assigned" is superceded by the regulations that limit, to 120 days, the amount of time an employee is supposed to be working in a higher graded position (with, as in a temp promotion, or without, as in a detail, pay). We often hear that the Federal government wants to make itself the employer of choice, but the reality these days does little to promote that image.
No Backpay, No Contract, No Promotion
Accounting Tech DFAS Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:31 AM
Being a lowly GS 6, I really don't feel for the GS 14, unless he were a minority or female, and he/she weren't selected for the promotion because of the "Good Old Boy" system.
No Back Pay, No Employment Contract, No Promotion
HR Specialist USDA Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:33 AM
Sorry folks, but this is not news. Appointee versus employment contract was settled long ago in the courts. The only way Mr. Collier could have gotten paid was if he was a member of a bargaining unit and the collective bargaining agreement had a specific clause directing pay for performance of higher graded duties. Surprised he (or his representative) didn't do his (or her) research.
No Back Pay/No promotion
Program Manager Indian Health Serivce Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:53 AM
Sad but true. When faced with additional Job responsibilities, as employees we have to look out for #1 and immediately seek appropriate actions. I know our site rarely promotes from within even though there are qualified, loyal and hard working employees, such as Mr. Collier, competing for a position. Then management wonders why there is such low employee morale, duh....... Hang in there Mr. Collier, look for your promotion elsewhere.
No Backpay, No Contract, No Promotion
Staff Assistant VHA Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:18 AM
We're not hearing the entire story. Why wasn't he promoted? Twenty four months is not exactly temporary. The Agency should have compensated him in some way, QSI or Special Contribution Award. If I were Collier, I'd find another job.
Collier v. U.S.
HR Spec (Classification) USAF Tue Aug 31, 2004 2:49 PM
Mr Smith, you're correct, the employee is out of luck. 1 - Classification does not recognize duties performed "in the absence of" anyone else. 2 - Back pay is never awarded in circumstances like these. 3 - Again, our system unfortunately requires managers to be on their toes and make needed changes when they are needed. But if they don't, ultimately the employee is the one who suffers for management's lapse. His managers acted inexcusably - Mr Collier absolutely should have been temporarily promoted, no doubt.
I agreed
Procurement Technician ACA, 65th RSC/Prior ACA,DOC, Fort Buchanan Wed Sep 1, 2004 6:21 AM
An employee doing a job because is needed, and because there are no other resources, should be proud of doing so to accomplish the mission. Lets the system take care by attrition. An employee should fight for their rights when there is an injustice or they are violating their rights. I have been performing a higher lever position, outstanding job for 3 years as a GS6 and the previous management never gave me a promotion, nor pay because simply she didn't like me. Sorry but I had to say that. I never fight for it because I was hired as a GS6 and if they didn't recorgnized my outstanding job, let God take care of them. Sorry but I had to say it.
no back pay
Maintenance Worker MCCS PARRIS ISLAND MCRD/MCAS BEAUFORT Thu Sep 2, 2004 11:50 AM
I am filling the billet of the locksmith
for all mccs buildings. My grade is
NA10. I do not have a PD. I have not had a PD for over 2 Years. The
Union is a JOKE! We could all work
elseware, but with 26 years in we
can only hope/cope with what we
have. It is better than unemployment?
Back Pay
Union President DOI Fri Nov 5, 2004 2:52 PM
I disagree with the court findings in this case of NO BACK PAY, the way I interpete the law is to read that if the employee is qualified for the postion in which they are acting they should be paid or compensated for the job preformed.
The governement takes advantage of governement employees and don't pay them for performing a job well done.
back pay act
The Plaintiff talks Plaintiff Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:55 AM
To get covered by the back pay act, I claimed that the failure to temporarily appointment me to the GS-15 was an unjustified act that resulted in the loss of pay. The court did not buy this, of course, and fell back on its standard statements about appointments, etc. My supervisor at the time was well aware of what was happening there and know that if I complained of a lack of such pay I would be hurt in the future competition for the same position. The people in the office were well aware of the possible consequences if I did not do the job. Unfortunately, my supervisor at the time came in my office after appointing his "employee" who had worked for him and told me that he did not select me because his employee did not want to retire. He was not married and had no children and was like 70 years old. Our office had been transferred to the ESC/JA and we were worried that such favoritism would prevail. The Col. was visibly angry with me when I appointed one of our office secretaries to the head position in our office over one of the secretaries that applied from his office. Pay back time coming. Please do not tell me about merit promotion. I was involved in hiring several employees in the past, and I saw how personnel twisted the facts to give points to a favored candidate. I was far more qualified to lead the office after doing the job for almost two years. The warning to federal employees is do not do any job outside of your appointed job, no matter what unless you receive temporary appointment to that position on paper. Claim that you want to be sure you get official credit for the higher job position work and do not fall for the story that it will only last a few weeks or months and that the extra paper work will burden them, that is their job at personnel. Your supervisor is using you for his own benefit. He will claim that his workers are so devoted to the job that he is saving money for the government. If you do take the job because of possible future consequences, ie, possible promotion into that job, "do" the job. As the lead patent attorney in the office, almost everyone was aware of the back room games that were going on there. It was almost like blackmail: if you do not do the acting chief job I will not consider you for promotion into that slot. Further several of the patent attorneys in the office were conducting private business on government time. One actually left the office for several hours of the day. His supervisor was warned on this behavior but he did not stop it. The employee was eventually fired and was disbarred for other conduct to my understanting.
Collier v. U.S.
ARS
Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:38 AM
The Government is a piece of work, they get away with anything that they want to, and there is little that an employee can do. I filed an age discrimination case and it took them 4 years and a deposition to tell me that I didn't have a case. I cannot believe what the Government is allowed to get away with. President Bush said he would not allow discrimination cases to be swept under the rug, but he has not a clue - there is no way with terrorist activity and running for election that he would care what happens to a low graded employee in any agency.
Re: Collier v. U.S.
EPA
Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:39 AM
Re: Collier v. U.S.
VA
Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:26 AM
Re: Collier v. U.S.
EPA
Tue Aug 31, 2004 12:44 PM
Re: Collier v. U.S.
VA
Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:16 PM
In a happier place like yours Mr. Collier would not have to hire an attorney to seek $40-$50K in pay and benefits and then have to fork over $50K to $100K in attorney's fees because his supervisor would have taken care of business, researched the options, and resolved any remuneration questions right up front.
Happily, it appears your supervisor is already in that team building positive mode, and that's great. He's already shifted & you are the beneficiary, or so it appears in your positive comments. Let's hope more of our supervisors get on that bandwagon; it's almost always better to team build than slam dunk a person who apparently in good faith (blissful ignorance?) works for two years in a higher graded position at his same rate of pay.
Of course, in this case we don't know what turned senior management against Collier, he might be Jack the Ripper fully deserving of these results, but it might also be interesting to be a fly on the wall to see when the next employee in that work group willingly chooses to help management by following in Collier's footsteps.... That may not be very likely, even though the PD in question may make that option enforceable on a temporary basis.
After all, the "appointment" knife cuts both ways. Since there is no enforceable employment contract, folks will normally go along only until they have a better option, and everyone knows USAJOBs has about a million options! I think we agree that it is better to treat the staff with the appreciation and concern they deserve as an important (most important?) asset to the organization, as your boss apparently does, and then all's well that ends well.
Re: Collier v. U.S.
EPA
Wed Sep 1, 2004 7:23 AM
I’ve seen many instances of private sector employees being shown the door in a reorganization and finding themselves laboring away at a 7-11 (or equivalent minimum wage position) in order to provide for their family. With Uncle Sam, although there are no guarantees, I can be quite certain that I’m going to finish my career unimpeded and be able to retire at age 55…..55!!!
Finally, I too have served as an acting supervisor, albeit not for 24 months. To me, this was a learning experience and resume material to further my ambitions. And yes, I did not get the permanent promotion. I wasn’t too happy about it, but you just press on. No need to make a federal case out of it!
No Back Pay, No Employment Contract, No Promotion
USCG, San Juan, PR
Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:50 AM
The Supervisor of Mr. Stanton Collier should have notified the Personnel Dept and get the scope on a possible differential pay adjustment, and past on the results to member. It is the Supervisor's responsibility to lookout for their people. Apparently, this was not the case.
Re: No Back Pay, No Employment Contract, No Promotion
VA
Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:54 AM
But note, too, there is some underlying conflict here: (1) Mr. Collier did the job for two years but was not selected to fill the job permanently; (2) then had to file a formal protest/appeal for the "back pay"; and finally, Mr. Collier is not without some responsibility for the debacle because (3) he didn't do his homework and/or received bad legal advice since the Back Pay Act is available on Internet and he could have personally reviewed the law itself & (in addition) a variety of case law precedents to determine its application in his case. The Equal Pay Act may have been a better avenue, but the Bottom Line: Mr. Collier's light at the end of the tunnel was a freight train. Time to find a new home; the odds are that from a managerial perspective he may not be the most popular employee in the office right now. He's just not the usual cowering subordinate all too many of our federal supervisors love to have in their stables. Clearly "Employer of Choice" is still a light year away in that shop!
No Back Pay, No Employment Contract, No Promotion
USDOL/EBSA
Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:52 AM
Mr. Stanton Collier did you not remember those three simple words at the end of every Federal Employees PD? They are "Duties as Assigned". 'Nuff said.
Re: No Back Pay, No Employment Contract, No Promotion
DOI
Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:18 AM
No Backpay, No Contract, No Promotion
DFAS
Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:31 AM
Being a lowly GS 6, I really don't feel for the GS 14, unless he were a minority or female, and he/she weren't selected for the promotion because of the "Good Old Boy" system.
No Back Pay, No Employment Contract, No Promotion
USDA
Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:33 AM
Sorry folks, but this is not news. Appointee versus employment contract was settled long ago in the courts. The only way Mr. Collier could have gotten paid was if he was a member of a bargaining unit and the collective bargaining agreement had a specific clause directing pay for performance of higher graded duties. Surprised he (or his representative) didn't do his (or her) research.
No Back Pay/No promotion
Indian Health Serivce
Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:53 AM
Sad but true. When faced with additional Job responsibilities, as employees we have to look out for #1 and immediately seek appropriate actions. I know our site rarely promotes from within even though there are qualified, loyal and hard working employees, such as Mr. Collier, competing for a position. Then management wonders why there is such low employee morale, duh....... Hang in there Mr. Collier, look for your promotion elsewhere.
No Backpay, No Contract, No Promotion
VHA
Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:18 AM
We're not hearing the entire story. Why wasn't he promoted? Twenty four months is not exactly temporary. The Agency should have compensated him in some way, QSI or Special Contribution Award. If I were Collier, I'd find another job.
Collier v. U.S.
USAF
Tue Aug 31, 2004 2:49 PM
Mr Smith, you're correct, the employee is out of luck. 1 - Classification does not recognize duties performed "in the absence of" anyone else. 2 - Back pay is never awarded in circumstances like these. 3 - Again, our system unfortunately requires managers to be on their toes and make needed changes when they are needed. But if they don't, ultimately the employee is the one who suffers for management's lapse. His managers acted inexcusably - Mr Collier absolutely should have been temporarily promoted, no doubt.
I agreed
ACA, 65th RSC/Prior ACA,DOC, Fort Buchanan
Wed Sep 1, 2004 6:21 AM
An employee doing a job because is needed, and because there are no other resources, should be proud of doing so to accomplish the mission. Lets the system take care by attrition. An employee should fight for their rights when there is an injustice or they are violating their rights. I have been performing a higher lever position, outstanding job for 3 years as a GS6 and the previous management never gave me a promotion, nor pay because simply she didn't like me. Sorry but I had to say that. I never fight for it because I was hired as a GS6 and if they didn't recorgnized my outstanding job, let God take care of them. Sorry but I had to say it.
no back pay
MCCS PARRIS ISLAND MCRD/MCAS BEAUFORT
Thu Sep 2, 2004 11:50 AM
I am filling the billet of the locksmith
for all mccs buildings. My grade is
NA10. I do not have a PD. I have not had a PD for over 2 Years. The
Union is a JOKE! We could all work
elseware, but with 26 years in we
can only hope/cope with what we
have. It is better than unemployment?
Back Pay
DOI
Fri Nov 5, 2004 2:52 PM
I disagree with the court findings in this case of NO BACK PAY, the way I interpete the law is to read that if the employee is qualified for the postion in which they are acting they should be paid or compensated for the job preformed.
The governement takes advantage of governement employees and don't pay them for performing a job well done.
back pay act
Plaintiff
Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:55 AM
To get covered by the back pay act, I claimed that the failure to temporarily appointment me to the GS-15 was an unjustified act that resulted in the loss of pay. The court did not buy this, of course, and fell back on its standard statements about appointments, etc. My supervisor at the time was well aware of what was happening there and know that if I complained of a lack of such pay I would be hurt in the future competition for the same position. The people in the office were well aware of the possible consequences if I did not do the job. Unfortunately, my supervisor at the time came in my office after appointing his "employee" who had worked for him and told me that he did not select me because his employee did not want to retire. He was not married and had no children and was like 70 years old. Our office had been transferred to the ESC/JA and we were worried that such favoritism would prevail. The Col. was visibly angry with me when I appointed one of our office secretaries to the head position in our office over one of the secretaries that applied from his office. Pay back time coming. Please do not tell me about merit promotion. I was involved in hiring several employees in the past, and I saw how personnel twisted the facts to give points to a favored candidate. I was far more qualified to lead the office after doing the job for almost two years. The warning to federal employees is do not do any job outside of your appointed job, no matter what unless you receive temporary appointment to that position on paper. Claim that you want to be sure you get official credit for the higher job position work and do not fall for the story that it will only last a few weeks or months and that the extra paper work will burden them, that is their job at personnel. Your supervisor is using you for his own benefit. He will claim that his workers are so devoted to the job that he is saving money for the government. If you do take the job because of possible future consequences, ie, possible promotion into that job, "do" the job. As the lead patent attorney in the office, almost everyone was aware of the back room games that were going on there. It was almost like blackmail: if you do not do the acting chief job I will not consider you for promotion into that slot. Further several of the patent attorneys in the office were conducting private business on government time. One actually left the office for several hours of the day. His supervisor was warned on this behavior but he did not stop it. The employee was eventually fired and was disbarred for other conduct to my understanting.